Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
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18-12-2015, 07:20 AM
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
(18-12-2015 06:31 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(18-12-2015 06:20 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  And don`t give me "hate speech" excuse, it is a religious belief shared by few billion people. So would you discriminate against her religious belief or not?

If a statement qualifies as hate speech, the number of people who believe it is irrelevant.

In the practical sense it is relevant, because for something to be qualified as hate speech there has to be a consensus on it. If majority believes that some statement is simply the truth, it won`t be classified as hate speech.

(18-12-2015 06:36 AM)morondog Wrote:  IANAL, but AFAIK if I own a t-shirt business, and Kim Davis comes to me, I can tell her that I refuse to do business with her. If I tell her that I refuse to do business with her *because* she is a Christian, then I am discriminating and can probably be sued.

This is the problem with the anti discriminatory laws, it often comes down to what you said and what you didn`t say , and what is your motives are and all that easy to manipulate, misrepresent, and get around stuff, while personal freedom will suffer and government intruding in your life and business way too much.

As we say here "skupla Dara nego mera" , meaning that the damage might be grater then the benefit.

On the other hand, I do recognize that some classes need to be protected from discrimination.

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18-12-2015, 07:22 AM
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
(18-12-2015 06:37 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(18-12-2015 06:34 AM)julep Wrote:  That is only true in states for which sexual orientation is a protected class; it is not in many states, and bakers there are free to discriminate.

Yay freedom! Rolleyes

Not to mention the states that are trying to go a step farther and protect discrimination based on "conscience." I think it was Kentucky or Louisiana that passed one of those bills and then tried to make it illegal for businesses that did not intend to discriminate to put up signs saying that all customers would be welcome. Sheesh.

I also very much disagree also with the libertarian types who say that the inconvenience to customers is negligible. Separate but equal has never worked, ever. All it does is set aside a segment of the market to be given only inferior goods at increased prices.
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18-12-2015, 08:06 AM
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
(18-12-2015 07:00 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-12-2015 05:07 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  I see that you edited your post and added this sentence. But please take not of my post.


I clearly excluded public service businesses from having the right to refuse service.

The law applies to every business that serves the public. Every one of them.

And your ridiculous examples are ridiculous.
Refusing to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple is not anything like refusing to put offensive messages on a cake.

And who is appointed to declare what is offensive and what is not?
Is there a list of the things that are considered offensive, or is finding something offensive just a personal view?

Why do you think the baker refused to make the cake? It`s precisely because he found it offensive based of his religious views. How come he doesn`t have the right to refuse what is offensive to him, but a Jew baker would have the right to refuse the Auschwitz cake because it is offensive to him ?

Just because you and me agree that swastika is offensive and homosexuality is not?
There are millions of christians and muslims who find homosexuality to be offensive in the same way you considered examples that I gave to be offensive.

What is offensive to somebody is their personal matter, if you insist that businesses have to accept the jobs they find offensive, then be sure that the same applies to you and your business too.

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18-12-2015, 08:09 AM
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
Using the word "Liberty" and attaching it to the right wing is hardly defending liberty. What the fundamentalists of ALL religions mean when they use words like freedom and liberty, merely means setting up their own social pecking order where at best the non majority are pets or house guests.

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18-12-2015, 08:31 AM
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
1) Davis's fifteen minutes were up months ago.

2) Freedom doesn't mean that you get to have everything both ways.

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

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18-12-2015, 09:34 AM
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
(18-12-2015 08:06 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(18-12-2015 07:00 AM)Chas Wrote:  The law applies to every business that serves the public. Every one of them.

And your ridiculous examples are ridiculous.
Refusing to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple is not anything like refusing to put offensive messages on a cake.

And who is appointed to declare what is offensive and what is not?
Is there a list of the things that are considered offensive, or is finding something offensive just a personal view?

It's not about an offensive message, it's about discrimination against a whole class of people.

Quote:Why do you think the baker refused to make the cake?

Bigotry? Ignorance?

Quote:It`s precisely because he found it offensive based of his religious views.


How is selling a cake in any way offensive to the baker?

Quote:How come he doesn`t have the right to refuse what is offensive to him, but a Jew baker would have the right to refuse the Auschwitz cake because it is offensive to him ?

Again you conflate unrelated issues. One issue is providing a cake, the other is an offensive message.

Quote:Just because you and me agree that swastika is offensive and homosexuality is not?

How is the cake homosexual?

Quote:There are millions of christians and muslims who find homosexuality to be offensive in the same way you considered examples that I gave to be offensive.

They can be offended all they want, it 's their delusion.
The baker could refuse to put an offensive message on a cake; any message.

Quote:What is offensive to somebody is their personal matter, if you insist that businesses have to accept the jobs they find offensive, then be sure that the same applies to you and your business too.

You continue to conflate issues. Try again.

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18-12-2015, 10:16 AM
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
(18-12-2015 07:20 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  This is the problem with the anti discriminatory laws, it often comes down to what you said and what you didn`t say , and what is your motives are and all that easy to manipulate, misrepresent, and get around stuff, while personal freedom will suffer and government intruding in your life and business way too much.

Whether or not someone was served by a business is a matter of record. There is no hearsay involved.

(18-12-2015 07:20 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  As we say here "skupla Dara nego mera" , meaning that the damage might be grater then the benefit.

On the other hand, I do recognize that some classes need to be protected from discrimination.

Well, we've seen what happens without anti-discrimination provisions. The damage to some people was very plainly greater than the nebulous loss of "freedom".

Which... is what you literally acknowledge in the next sentence? So I'm not sure what your point is?

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18-12-2015, 10:17 AM
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
(18-12-2015 08:06 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  What is offensive to somebody is their personal matter, if you insist that businesses have to accept the jobs they find offensive, then be sure that the same applies to you and your business too.

The difference is that under most laws - I wouldn't pretend to know what they are in your corner of the world, but here - it is illegal to discriminate against what someone is, but allowable to respond to what someone does.

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18-12-2015, 10:41 AM
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
(18-12-2015 10:17 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(18-12-2015 08:06 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  What is offensive to somebody is their personal matter, if you insist that businesses have to accept the jobs they find offensive, then be sure that the same applies to you and your business too.

The difference is that under most laws - I wouldn't pretend to know what they are in your corner of the world, but here - it is illegal to discriminate against what someone is, but allowable to respond to what someone does.

Although, yes, trivially, there will be ambiguous edge cases. There are always edge cases. That's the inevitable consequence of having rules. So what?

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18-12-2015, 11:10 AM
RE: Kim Davis's Professional Victimhood
(18-12-2015 09:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-12-2015 08:06 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  And who is appointed to declare what is offensive and what is not?
Is there a list of the things that are considered offensive, or is finding something offensive just a personal view?

It's not about an offensive message, it's about discrimination against a whole class of people.

Quote:Why do you think the baker refused to make the cake?

Bigotry? Ignorance?

Quote:It`s precisely because he found it offensive based of his religious views.


How is selling a cake in any way offensive to the baker?

Quote:How come he doesn`t have the right to refuse what is offensive to him, but a Jew baker would have the right to refuse the Auschwitz cake because it is offensive to him ?

Again you conflate unrelated issues. One issue is providing a cake, the other is an offensive message.

Quote:Just because you and me agree that swastika is offensive and homosexuality is not?

How is the cake homosexual?

Quote:There are millions of christians and muslims who find homosexuality to be offensive in the same way you considered examples that I gave to be offensive.

They can be offended all they want, it 's their delusion.
The baker could refuse to put an offensive message on a cake; any message.

Quote:What is offensive to somebody is their personal matter, if you insist that businesses have to accept the jobs they find offensive, then be sure that the same applies to you and your business too.

You continue to conflate issues. Try again.
I will try again.

Issue here is the right of the people to chose to do or not to do business with whoever they want. Regardless of their motives.
Yes, there will be people who will use this right to discriminate against others, but it is a smaller price to pay then to infringe on peoples freedom.
Having in mind that anti discrimination laws are really not that effective and can easily be circumvented.

And, btw, you can't force people not to be bigoted by having laws against bigotry.
They will still be bigoted even if respecting said laws, educating them is the only solution.

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