King David, King Solomon and Egytpian Exodus.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
20-09-2013, 05:34 PM
RE: King David, King Solomon and Egytpian Exodus.
There is no evidence for a mass exodus and there is no evidence for any sort of biblical blitzkrieg by "joshua the stormtrooper" and his mighty army.

As to part two, the evidence suggests that the northern kingdom (Israel) and the southern kingdom "Judah" evolved separately and were never a single political entity.

There was no "United Monarchy," at best a questionable "david" and no evidence of a jewish "solomon" at all. There was, if you want to cast a somewhat wider net, a great king of Assyria called Shalmeneser in Greek but Shulmanu-Asaredu in Akkadian. Shulmanu? Solomon?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Minimalist's post
20-09-2013, 06:00 PM
RE: King David, King Solomon and Egytpian Exodus.
(20-09-2013 05:34 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  There is no evidence for a mass exodus and there is no evidence for any sort of biblical blitzkrieg by "joshua the stormtrooper" and his mighty army.

As to part two, the evidence suggests that the northern kingdom (Israel) and the southern kingdom "Judah" evolved separately and were never a single political entity.

There was no "United Monarchy," at best a questionable "david" and no evidence of a jewish "solomon" at all. There was, if you want to cast a somewhat wider net, a great king of Assyria called Shalmeneser in Greek but Shulmanu-Asaredu in Akkadian. Shulmanu? Solomon?

even the idea of a mass exodus of jews has logical holes in it. I mean, if I was an egyptian slave and I heard that the king was going to release some jewish peeps, I would become a jew over night, anything to get the fuck out of slavery. You mean if I believe in jew sky gods I get be released on wednesday, where do I sign up to become a jew.

the jewish kingdoms thing has holes in it too. Besides the obvious that there never was any "great kingdom" as mentioned in the bible. Many jews back then practiced and accepted in their beliefs the idea of conversion. The "pure blood" notion of judaism is new and a modern idea.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-09-2013, 09:56 PM
RE: King David, King Solomon and Egytpian Exodus.
I would highly recommend reading The Bible Unearthed, by Professor Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman. They go into great detail to answer the questions of the OP.

Manifest Insanity @ Amazon
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Diogenes of Mayberry's post
23-09-2013, 10:13 PM
Re: RE: King David, King Solomon and Egytpian Exodus.
(23-09-2013 09:56 PM)Diogenes of Mayberry Wrote:  I would highly recommend reading The Bible Unearthed, by Professor Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman. They go into great detail to answer the questions of the OP.

If one looks it up on YouTube I think BBC or someone else has a series based on that. Its been linked here when we has several threads discussing these topics in the past.

Archeological evidence that's been found leads to only smaller exist like events out of Egypt but more importantly, shows an internal social/culture shift in how the Canaanite cities turned over to Hebrew status.

I don't know where the info comes from, but I've heard reports on videos or from podcasts that say a high percentage of people in Israel or us cultural Jewish people are aware of this historical data/reality.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-09-2013, 10:29 PM
RE: King David, King Solomon and Egytpian Exodus.
Yes, I read an article recently about the secular Jews being aware of their history. I can't recall where I posted it though.

For the historical grains at the root of the exodus story, check out the Hyksos. A Canaanite or Syrian people who were the rulers in Goshen, not slaves; the 15th Dynasty. They were driven out by the king of Thebes, who used chariots in battle for the first time in recorded history.

Manifest Insanity @ Amazon
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-09-2013, 10:36 PM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2013 08:49 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: King David, King Solomon and Egytpian Exodus.
(20-09-2013 06:00 PM)I and I Wrote:  Many jews back then practiced and accepted in their beliefs the idea of conversion. The "pure blood" notion of judaism is new and a modern idea.

And you know that how ? You need evidence to support anything that pops out of your obsessed little brain.
Why do you hate Jews so much ? You can't even capitalize the word correctly, you are so painfully prejudiced.
If you assert something, one can assume it's not true.
The fact that there was no large-scale Exodus event, and the fact that the size/extent of the kingdoms was exaggerated in Biblical texts, has no bearing at all, (none), on whether or not there actually were/was/are discrete genetic groups of Semites, which today we call Jews. WTF does "coming out of Egypt together" have to do with genetics ? They could have been related either BEFORE or AFTER. Whether families lived together in any particular kingdom, (or not) at any specific time, is also 100 % irrelevant to what might be found in a genetic test.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/articl...their-dna/
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewi...t-1.428664
http://forward.com/articles/175912/jews-...erce-atta/

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Bucky Ball's post
28-09-2013, 08:48 AM
RE: King David, King Solomon and Egytpian Exodus.
I've read all the posts in this thread.....I was looking to learn something. I've just finished reading "The Bible Unearthed" (Finkelstein/Silberman) and was looking to augment/refute some of the book's points.
Instead I've run into battles, accusations, verbal abuse, and diatribes that have little if anything to do with the thread topic.
What a shame!

"People don't go to heaven when they die; they're taken to a special room and burned!" Evil_monster
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-10-2013, 08:32 PM
RE: King David, King Solomon and Egytpian Exodus.
Quote:Many jews back then practiced and accepted in their beliefs the idea of conversion.

There is no indication...outside of the OT...that there was anything resembling "judaism" prior to the Persian period. The aforementioned Professor Finkelstein has continued his studies in recent years into the Persian period and determined that Yehud, as the Persians renamed the province, was governed by a small enclave of perhaps 400 who re-established Jerusalem in the aftermath of the Babylonian sacking. In fact, there was a scholarly debate between Finkelstein and Oded Lipschits about the number of people in Persian Jerusalem. What number did Lipschits come up with? 1,000. In other words, they are arguing about a statistical irrelevancy.

William Dever, in "Did God Have A Wife" finds evidence in inscriptions and fertility statuettes that the religion of Judah did not differ from the rest of Canaan. There was nothing particularly "jewish" about them until much later in the 3d century BC. Phillip R. Davies deals with the issue in "In Search of Ancient Israel." I suggest you put your bible down and learn some other stuff.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-10-2013, 10:10 PM
RE: King David, King Solomon and Egytpian Exodus.
(01-10-2013 08:32 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:Many jews back then practiced and accepted in their beliefs the idea of conversion.

There is no indication...outside of the OT...that there was anything resembling "judaism" prior to the Persian period. The aforementioned Professor Finkelstein has continued his studies in recent years into the Persian period and determined that Yehud, as the Persians renamed the province, was governed by a small enclave of perhaps 400 who re-established Jerusalem in the aftermath of the Babylonian sacking. In fact, there was a scholarly debate between Finkelstein and Oded Lipschits about the number of people in Persian Jerusalem. What number did Lipschits come up with? 1,000. In other words, they are arguing about a statistical irrelevancy.

William Dever, in "Did God Have A Wife" finds evidence in inscriptions and fertility statuettes that the religion of Judah did not differ from the rest of Canaan. There was nothing particularly "jewish" about them until much later in the 3d century BC. Phillip R. Davies deals with the issue in "In Search of Ancient Israel." I suggest you put your bible down and learn some other stuff.

I found "Who Wrote the Bible" by Richard Elliott Friedmann, UCSD, and "How the Bible Became a Book : The Textualization of Ancient Israel", by William Schneidewind, (Professor and Chair, Near Eastern Languages and Cultures, UCLA) also great intros to Biblical Studies.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-10-2013, 06:43 AM
RE: King David, King Solomon and Egytpian Exodus.
(20-09-2013 08:43 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(20-09-2013 07:32 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  There's no point being angry at someone for disagreeing with your argument when you haven't made the argument. What you actually wanted to say in the OP was "I hate jews, and I think they're a completely modern invention that didn't exist in Biblical times, therefore the state of Israel should be destroyed.". You asked questions. You received straightforward apparently factual information in response. You presented no position of your own, nor did you present any counterargument. Your response was to sulk. If you care about expressing yourself, perhaps you should do so clearly. Present your arguments and listen and respond to counter-arguments.
So you disagree with my statements that there is no evidence for a jewish kingdom (as mentioned in the bible) and there is no evidence for a mass exodus from egypt (as mentioned in the bible?. Feel free to provide evidence for these if you disagree with my statement.

And, now Hafnof disappears from the thread.

Some people exist outside of your time zone. I live in the antipodes. My day time corresponds to night in Europe and the Americas[1] Wink I also spent the weekend visiting family in Sydney about 900km from my usual abode so had limited access to things.

More generally I tend to post when I have something to say. I don't generally make an argument that someone else is already making perfectly well. I don't generally make a case that another is already making better than I would. I post when I have something specific to contribute, whether that be to inject specific information or to inject a specific tone to a discussion.

I don't have any unique information about ancient Israel or Judah or Palestine. I don't have anything specific to add in that regard that has not already been said and said better by others. But here you are again with your black and white, adversarial thinking. Here you are again with "if you're not with me, you're against me". Why must someone who disagrees with you be wrong? Could it be that they have access to information that would enrich your own world view?

Why do I enter a thread such as this one? It is to sample at the buffet, to find what is known by others, to weigh and to assess and if appropriate to incorporate new information into my outlook on reality. When I come to a thread like this I come with an open mind, ready to challenge my views and my assumptions. I'm ready to be swayed by better information and more reliable sources. I'm ready to see your sources and weigh their reliability.

But what do I get from you? Let me summarise your contribution:
1. I hereby assert without evidence that there was no Exodus
2. I hereby assert without evidence that there was no Jewish kingdom at any time, in any form.
3. I do not consider a colony a kingdom. I hereby shift the goalposts such that there is no workable definition of kingdom that I'm prepared to accept. I present no definition of kingdom so no evidence can be presented to me that a jewish colony might in fact have been a kingdom.
4. I hereby assert without evidence that there was no unified jewish culture. I accept jews did exist in the form of sects with differing religious practices and beliefs. Therefore I do tacitly accept that there was a Jewish kingom. (does disunity of belief necessitate disunity of culture?)
5. This is the point that Hafnof steps in and suggests that maybe you should mount some argument for for some conclusion at some point in the thread... you know... if you have anything interesting to say and are interested in what others might have to say.
6. I hereby assert that anyone who disagrees with any part of my unevidenced claims must provide evidence both that there was a mass exodus and a Jewish Kingdom, the latter point being one I've already conceded but chose to shift the goal-posts on - and the earlier point being uncontroversial.
7. I hereby assert anyone who does not commit their life and soul to monitoring my threads has as their motive to derail my threads.
8. I hereby assert that the participants in this thread and this message board other than myself are wittingly or unwittingly participating in a religiously-motivated suppression of anti-Semitic thought and expression. Moreover, I am the only "good" atheist here.
9. I now argue for the uncontroversial view that the Exodus didn't really happen. I retreat from my earlier argument that there was no Jewish Kingdom, to the uncontroversial argument that there was no "great kingdom". Moreover I assert that modern Judaism is based around notion of "pure blood", and don't accept the notion of conversion. I further assert that these notions that I have not provided any evidence exist in modern Judaism did not exist in ancient times either. The latter point being, of course, uncontroversial. The former being based on a reading from white supremacist manuals rather than the Torah, I think you'll find.

At the same time many reliable references have been provided by other contributors that are able to provide a nuanced view of what we really can and cannot say with certainty about ancient Israel/Palestine. Did you take the time to reconsider your views in light of any of the resources provided? I suspect you did not, and I suspect the reason you did not is that from the start of this thread your intention was not to discuss or to understand but instead to justify in your own mind a current political objective you have.

Your questions:
Do I disagree with your statements that that there is no evidence for a jewish kingdom? Do I claim that there is evidence for a jewish kingdom? Sure. I'm happy to claim that the books of Chronicles and Kings are boring and tedious enough that they are unlikely to be pure invention. I doubt the kingdom(s) existed precisely as stated and I'm more than willing to entertain the notion that they were effectively a vassal state of Babylon and/or Egypt over this time. I understand that there is some archaeological evidence to support the existence of a small kingdom over this period, for values of kingdom where a group of people who have someone they call a king can be called a kingdom.

Do I disagree with your statements that there is not evidence for the exodus? I'm not aware of any compelling evidence for an Exodus from Egypt, and I am highly sceptical of the Exodus account. I treat it as mythical.

[1] http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/me...3=136&iv=0

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Hafnof's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: