King of Kings
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30-12-2012, 12:22 AM (This post was last modified: 30-12-2012 12:31 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: King of Kings
(30-12-2012 12:02 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(29-12-2012 06:53 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hey Egor, are you by any chance referring here to the gnostic hyleticism/psychism/pneuma argument?

I have no idea what you're talking about. School me.

Quote:What is your "concept of Christ?" and how did you arrive at it?

Studying the Gospels independently, I came to the conclusion that Jesus was a monist. I'm not going to take the time to point out all the verses that I use to support that, but I can if I have to. When I discovered the Gospel of Thomas, I realized even more that Jesus was a monist. But if Jesus and God are the same, and if God is monistic in His nature, then what is the nature of Christ, I wondered. I settled on the idea that Christ was simply God conscious of Himself from within His creation. Just like a lucid dreamer is conscious of his own kind of divinity within a dream.

So, there isn't just supposed to be Jesus Christ. There's supposed to be Edward Christ and Mark Christ, et. al. We don't just follow Christ, we are transformed into Christ, and realizing that, I could think of no othe purpose a human being would have. It also made sense to me why humans were so different from all other animal species--because we were designed to become Christ.

Quote:Do you think you are God? (I'm not trying to belittle you....just asking)

Yes. So are you. We are dream images of God, thus we are the substance of God. It's funny you brought up narcissism, because this is what it's all about: God is the eternal narcissist. He creates a world and dream creatures and tries to get them to transform into Himself creating a perfect and Divine mirror--which He uses to behold Himself. That's the whole reason for existence.

It would seem vain, but if you were the greatest possible being, and if your nature was the definition of perfection, staring at yourself in a mirror would be the greatest and most perfect pleasure possible. And that's what God does--he stares at Himself. What else is there for Him to do?

I've had lucid dreams, a lot of lucid dreams, but I remember one in particular where three of the characters begged me to not forget them and to come back for them. I woke feeling unconditional love for them and regret that I could not get back. But what was I loving? Myself. They were of the substance of my mind.

That's what's going on with God.

I am God; you are God; everything is God. To fail to realize this makes you nothing more than a fucked-up drawing God simply crumples up and throws away--as an atheist, to God, you are an attempt that didn't pan out. The good news is, you can change that.

That's my sales pitch.

[Image: billy-mays.jpg]
Hi Egor, re "I have no idea what you're talking about. School me."

Well....what you were saying about how we are all "God" is, and you may know this, a very "gnostic" idea.

The author of the gospel of Thomas (which you rate highly) may have been a gnostic. They are a very heterogenous group. If you care to read the following (it is a bit long but I think well worth it) you may get what I was on about re
hyleticism/psychism/pneuma . Valentinus was one of the most prominent gnostics.

Valentinus


Valentinus (100–160 CE) was the best known and, for a time, the most successful early Christian Gnostic theologian.
He was born a Jew, and was educated in Alexandria, at the time an important early Christian center. In about 136 CE, just after the second Jewish war, he went to Rome, where he founded his school. He was prominent in the Christian
community of Rome between 136 and 160 CE (http://www.gnosis.org/valentinus.htm).


Valentinus had no interest in acquiring power or wealth, so he didn’t fit in well with other prominent members of what became the Catholic Church. He may or may not have eventually split from them; there is evidence he remained a member of the Catholic community until his death in about 160 CE. The Valentinian “school,” continued after him, and elaborated still further his theology. The Catholic Church condemned him as a heretic only many years later.


Valentinus professed to have derived some of his ideas from Theodas, a disciple of St. Paul, (and about whom nothing
is known) who imparted to him the secret wisdom that Paul had taught privately to his inner circle. It would have had to be a very old Theodas and a very young Valentinus if that were the case.


He believed that one didn’t need the intermediary of the church to know God, that one could experience God firsthand
if one knew the “secret tradition.” It’s not surprising that the Catholic hierarchy perceived him as a threat.


He drew many disciples, and his system was the most widely diffused of all the forms of Gnosticism. He produced a
variety of writings, but only fragments survive, not enough to reconstruct his system except in broad outline. We know his doctrine only in the developed and modified form given to it by his disciples.


The Gnostic writings survived only in quotes recorded by their orthodox detractors until 1945, when the cache of writings at Nag Hammadi revealed original Gnostic texts.


Valentinus and Gnosticism


The term “gnostic” is a convenient one for historians, as it packages some very diverse groups into a neatly labeled
whole, yet things weren’t that simple. The term means “one who knows”, rather than designating a distinct doctrine. It’s a common misconception that Gnosticism began during the Christian era, yet it existed thousands of years
beforehand. Gnostics were, in fact, very eclectic, as they tried to interpret many religious ideologies and philosophies. The Greek philosopher Pythagorus was a “Gnostic,” as was Philo. Mandaeanism was a form of Gnosticism dating from the 4th century BCE that tried to bridge Judaism with Zoroastrianism, and it was very influential on Christianity. During the Christian era, “Gnosticism” became more of a monolithic movement associated with Christianity.



Edward Gibbon wrote that the Gnostics were distinguished as the most polite, learned, and the wealthiest of the early
Christians, and that their principal founders were natives of Syria or Egypt. They blended their faith in Christ with many “sublime but obscure tenets,” which they derived from oriental philosophy and even from the religion of
Zoroaster(628–551 BCE, an ancient Iranianprophet, philosopher and poet) and others. They were many groups of them, all of which can be considered as proto-Christians. Instead of the four Gospels eventually adopted by the church, the Gnostics produced a multitude of histories in which the actions and discourses of Christ and his apostles were
discussed.


They were deep thinkers, Valentinus being a good example.


Valentinus believed that God was androgynous. Reflecting this gender parity, women held positions of authority within his community.


Unlike the master/sheep relationship of Christianity, for the Valentinians, Christ was like a brother, a wise teacher who helped them work things out.


One of the most important differences between Gnosticism and Catholicism was the removal of the intercessor between God and man. Catholics (even today) are told that they need a priest to perform absolution from sin and other functions like baptism, communion, blessings, and burials. Gnostics didn’t. As a result, the priesthood felt threatened because the Gnostics did them out of an income and diminished their importance.


The Valentinians participated in the public life of the Catholic Church, yet also held their meetings separately from them. These meetings were open to all interested parties and served to attract potential converts to the movement. They were egalitarian affairs; anybody who came to a meeting was seen as potentially spiritual and was made welcome. The orthodox critic Tertullian reported:


"They all have access equally, they all listen equally, they all pray equally—even pagans if they happen to come…They
also share the kiss of peace with all who come." (Prescription Against Heretics, Chapter 41).


Stephan A. Hoeller, a recognized modern authority on Gnosticism, relates the following insights (adapted by myself
without changing their meaning) on Valentinus’ Gnosticism.


Valentinus’ ideas on how things are might be summarized thus: people from all walks of life recognized that there
was something wrong with their lives. We lived in a “system” that was defective. So-called orthodox Christians, as well as Jews, recognized that there was “wrongness” in human existence too, but they accounted for it chiefly
in terms of the effects of human sin. They believed that whatever was wrong with the world was the result of human disobedience to the creator. This meant that all evil, discomfort, and terror in their lives and in history were somehow
man’s fault. So a theme of “Mea Culpa” ran through this worldview, which permanently affixed an element of guilt to the human psyche. Valentinus, in opposition to this, shifted the blame for the wrongness in the world from
humanity to divinity. That God the creator could be at fault in anything was tantamount to blasphemy in Catholic eyes. Yet Valentinus didn’t view the creator with the worshipful eyes of the Judeo-Christian believer, but rather
saw the creator, along with other divinities, as mythical creations of man. Consider this quote from the Gospel of Philip (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html, part of the Nag Hammadi library):


“God created man and man created God. So is it in the world. Men make gods and they worship their creations. It would be fitting for the gods to worship men” (Logion 85: 1–4).


He believed humans had the potential to resolve the wrongness of their existence by using “Gnosis,” or self-knowledge. He thought that because human minds had lost their self-knowledge, we lived in a world that was lacking in integrity. Knowledge of self was the real resurrection - resurrection from the death of ignorance.


Valentinus would say there was no need whatsoever for guilt, or for repentance from so-called sin. Nor was there a
need for belief in salvation by way of the death of Jesus. We didn't need to be saved; we needed to be transformed, by Gnosis, the activation of self-knowledge.


The proposition that the human mind lives in a largely self-created world, from whence only Gnosis can rescue it,
is common to Buddhism. According to Buddha, the world of apparent reality consists of ignorance and the lack of authentic selfhood.


Valentinus didn’t negate or diminish the importance of Jesus in his teachings, and he claimed to possess a secret oral tradition from Jesus himself. For the Valentinians, Christ was like a brother. The great devotion and reverence shown
for Jesus is manifest in the Gospel of Truth from Nag Hammadi, (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/got.html)
which in its original form was authored by Valentinus himself. Jesus is indeed a saviour, but the term needs to be
understood in the meaning of the original Greek word “soter,” meaning healer, or bestower of health. “Soteria” meant healthiness, deliverance from imperfection, and becoming whole.


The Valentinians believed that all wrongness in the world has one common root: ignorance. We’re ignorant of the authentic values of life and substitute inauthentic ones for them. The inauthentic values are either
physical or of the mind. We believe that we need things (such as money, symbols of power, prestige or physical pleasures) in order to be happy or whole. Similarly, we fall in love with the ideas and abstractions of our minds; the rigidities and the hardness of our lives is due to our attachment to abstract concepts and precepts. The Gnostics called
the sickness of materialism “hyleticism” (worship of matter), while the sickness of abstract intellectualism and moralizing was known as “psychism” (worship of the mind/emotional soul).


What then was the role of Jesus, the soter, the healer-savior, the spiritual maker of wholeness, if he had no need
to save us from sin? He could exorcise the sicknesses of hyleticism and psychism by bringing knowledge of the pneuma (spirit) to the soul and mind. What is this pneuma, this spirit, which alone brings Gnosis and healing? They could not say what it was, but could indicate what it did.It brought a flexibility and courage to life. By way of the
healing agency of pneuma, the soul ceased to be fascinated and confined by things and ideas and could address itself to life.
The obsessive state of material and mental attachments was thus replaced by spiritual freedom; the inauthentic values of the former were made to give way to more authentic ones.


(I thank Stephan A. Hoeller for providing the above insights into Gnosticism. See his original article at http://www.gnosis.org/valentinus.htm.)


Wow! The above takes some thinking to understand and appreciate, but the ideas expressed are certainly real and
powerful. These people absorbed stories from many religions and tried to mold them into sensible philosophy. It’s eye-opening and refreshing to realize that nearly 2000 years ago there were large groups of people whose thinking about the world was as deep and well developed as these Gnostics. There are clever minds at work here. Many modern readers who have thought deeply about the meaning of life will feel an immediate connection with Valentinus.


These ideas have a very non-Jewish flavor to them. I must admit I find it difficult to imagine Yeshua the Jewish peasant
from Galilee entertaining them.


Shortly after Valentinus’ death, Irenaeus began his massive work “Adversus Haereses”, with a highly colored and
negative view of Valentinus and his teachings that occupies most of the book.


It’s a pity that Valentinus’ Jesus was forced out of circulation. Imagine society today if a Gnostic Jesus
story had won the propaganda battle! What a peaceful world we’d have if the focus had been on self-discovery and the acceptance of alternative views instead of irrational guilt and intolerance of others!


There are good websites and numerous books on Gnosticism for anyone interested (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlintro.html).


The success of the Gnostics was rapid and extensive, and they were labeled heretics by a Catholic Church more interested in the pursuit of power than in personal profundities.


Sometime around 350 CE, monks in Egypt preserved some of the “heretical” Gnostic writings by burying them underground at Nag Hammadi.


Even if Gnosticism hadn’t suffered persecution, it was probably too intellectual to appeal to the hoi polloi, who
were more easily impressed with and controlled by visible gods and idolatry.
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30-12-2012, 05:17 AM
RE: King of Kings
(25-12-2012 03:22 AM)Egor Wrote:  You feel nothing. You strive for nothing. You value human life no more than dirt. You can't love others. You have no revelation of God, no revelation of Christ. You are simply waiting to die, and as far as you're concerned, it's taking forever.
Why don't you have some self-respect for a change.
Bye.Sleepy


Oh how wrong you are. Is it not our corrupt politicians and ceo's that look for the easiest way out? Do they not say they believe in christ and then stab you in the back when you least suspect? Atheists are the ones who have gotten off their asses and fought for truth, no matter how unpopular it is. It is you who are lazy. You that just gave up and said "god done it". There are some of us that when people remember us after we die, to have them remember a strong willed individual who was anything but lazy. Someone who did good things not for a forever reward, but because it is the right thing to do. Also according to your own holy book, we are dirt. We are all and that includes you, dirty pieces of shit that deserve hell because we are so imperfect. I would prefer to be remembered for the good I have done instead of as a "god fearing person".
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30-12-2012, 06:40 AM
RE: King of Kings
(29-12-2012 02:02 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(29-12-2012 07:01 AM)bemore Wrote:  You are using god to justify being a cunt.

And you're only my friend when I believe the way you want me to. Looks like we all cuntz now! Sadcryface2

Its an atheist forum dude, what do you expect to happen? Everybody to be your best friend because you have a belief that they dont share and that most have/have had angst with?

You have proved yourself before (regardless of what belief you held at the time) to be a reasonable and polite person who can converse without being a tool. I dont get why you are being such a tool now?

So some people disagree with you on here.... wow... like its nothing I imagine you havent allready come across before many times in your life.

I dunno. I dont even know what this thread is about anymore other than an excuse for people to stroke their own ego.

Im gone.

You're never going to say the things you want to say.
The things you want to change will usually stay that way
The promises you break outweigh the ones you keep.
Paint upon the wall for the hundredth time.

Jesus Jones
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30-12-2012, 01:12 PM
RE: King of Kings
(28-12-2012 10:03 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(28-12-2012 01:04 PM)Impulse Wrote:  The bold line is the second myth. If you read the paragraph, you will see it supports Mark's article.


If you're talking about narcissistic personality traits that's one thing. If you're talking about narcissistic personality disorder, that's another.

In theory, there could be a justifiable narcissism. If one was truly great and beautiful, it would be appropriate to love oneself and consider oneself better than other people. God, is a complete narcissist, but His narcissism is justified.

What matters is that one see themselves truthfully. Yes
Classic.

Silence is only golden when it's not synonymous with a failure to speak out against injustice.

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." --Gene Roddenberry
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31-12-2012, 04:57 AM
RE: King of Kings
Sorry for being late, but Merry Christmas Egor.

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I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
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31-12-2012, 08:18 AM (This post was last modified: 31-12-2012 08:21 AM by Human Being.)
RE: King of Kings
(25-12-2012 12:56 AM)Egor Wrote:  Suddenly all the secret meanings, all the riddles, all the symbols and ideas of Christ became obvious. The Gospel was a story by me, for me.

That's basically the same thing Charles Manson said about The Beatles' The White Album. Most people have a work of art or a fiction that touches them in a similar way. What separates the sane from the insane is the ability to discern that being moved by a fiction, doesn't make the fiction real.

"To hate man and worship God seems to be the sum of all creeds." — Robert Ingersoll
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31-12-2012, 02:48 PM
RE: King of Kings
(30-12-2012 12:02 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(29-12-2012 06:53 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hey Egor, are you by any chance referring here to the gnostic hyleticism/psychism/pneuma argument?

I have no idea what you're talking about. School me.

Quote:What is your "concept of Christ?" and how did you arrive at it?

Studying the Gospels independently, I came to the conclusion that Jesus was a monist. I'm not going to take the time to point out all the verses that I use to support that, but I can if I have to. When I discovered the Gospel of Thomas, I realized even more that Jesus was a monist. But if Jesus and God are the same, and if God is monistic in His nature, then what is the nature of Christ, I wondered. I settled on the idea that Christ was simply God conscious of Himself from within His creation. Just like a lucid dreamer is conscious of his own kind of divinity within a dream.

So, there isn't just supposed to be Jesus Christ. There's supposed to be Edward Christ and Mark Christ, et. al. We don't just follow Christ, we are transformed into Christ, and realizing that, I could think of no othe purpose a human being would have. It also made sense to me why humans were so different from all other animal species--because we were designed to become Christ.

Quote:Do you think you are God? (I'm not trying to belittle you....just asking)

Yes. So are you. We are dream images of God, thus we are the substance of God. It's funny you brought up narcissism, because this is what it's all about: God is the eternal narcissist. He creates a world and dream creatures and tries to get them to transform into Himself creating a perfect and Divine mirror--which He uses to behold Himself. That's the whole reason for existence.

It would seem vain, but if you were the greatest possible being, and if your nature was the definition of perfection, staring at yourself in a mirror would be the greatest and most perfect pleasure possible. And that's what God does--he stares at Himself. What else is there for Him to do?

I've had lucid dreams, a lot of lucid dreams, but I remember one in particular where three of the characters begged me to not forget them and to come back for them. I woke feeling unconditional love for them and regret that I could not get back. But what was I loving? Myself. They were of the substance of my mind.

That's what's going on with God.

I am God; you are God; everything is God. To fail to realize this makes you nothing more than a fucked-up drawing God simply crumples up and throws away--as an atheist, to God, you are an attempt that didn't pan out. The good news is, you can change that.

That's my sales pitch.

[Image: billy-mays.jpg]
Ok Egor, I'm going to challenge you to be objective.

What you're saying is you've made a serious "independent" study of five gospels. I believe you. Yet what can be the value of "studying" a few stories "independently?" It would only take a few hours to read them. Then, I guess, you read them again, and do the same the next day, have a think, then read them again. You've got nowhere else to go.

There are thousands of books and millions of articles about the life and times of Jesus and the authors of Christianity, yet you haven't taken advantage of any of it. You've created an entire belief system out of your own imagination, and ended up deciding you, and everyone else, are god.

You are a psych nurse. You probably read patient's histories, and maybe also participate in case conferences about patients. Imagine you became unwell enough to end up as a patient (I'm not saying you are unwell). You would be labelled as
-obsessive; its not reasonable or normal to read scripture this intently
-deluded; your beliefs are quite bizarre
-narcissistic; see previous
-passive/aggressive,because you are frequently inflammatory and judgmental towards people who don't share your beliefs, for example "To fail to realize this makes you nothing more than a fucked-up drawing
God simply crumples up and throws away--as an atheist, to God, you are
an attempt that didn't pan out."

Now...I think when you calm down, you have the integrity and intelligence to objectively look at yourself. Can you understand why you're hardly Mr popular?

I think most people here will support you as you move towards atheism, provided you can stop firing bullets.

I've said my bit. I'm going to try to stick to the topics. I hope you do too.
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02-01-2013, 01:46 AM
 
RE: King of Kings
(31-12-2012 02:48 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Now...I think when you calm down, you have the integrity and intelligence to objectively look at yourself. Can you understand why you're hardly Mr popular?

Do you really think in all the time I've been here that I've been striving for popularity? Seriously? I could have pretended to be an atheist anytime I wanted to. Hell, I don't even believe in the Christian version of God and have written arguments that show the impossibility of it. I could easily have come in here and been the atheist of atheists. Yes

You have to understand: I don't care what atheists think about me. Why would I? You are, after all, an atheist. I swear to God, my attitude and the way I think about atheists is exactly the way Agent Smith thinks of Morpheus.




Even Christians don't think of you all that way. Blink

But here's the deal. I'm probably out of here now. My presence here, since I started my own forum, has become inappropriate, in my opinion. So, If you want to carry on this debate, you'll have to find me there.

Hasta.
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02-01-2013, 04:46 AM
RE: King of Kings
(02-01-2013 01:46 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(31-12-2012 02:48 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Now...I think when you calm down, you have the integrity and intelligence to objectively look at yourself. Can you understand why you're hardly Mr popular?

Do you really think in all the time I've been here that I've been striving for popularity? Seriously? I could have pretended to be an atheist anytime I wanted to. Hell, I don't even believe in the Christian version of God and have written arguments that show the impossibility of it. I could easily have come in here and been the atheist of atheists. Yes

You have to understand: I don't care what atheists think about me. Why would I? You are, after all, an atheist. I swear to God, my attitude and the way I think about atheists is exactly the way Agent Smith thinks of Morpheus.




Even Christians don't think of you all that way. Blink

But here's the deal. I'm probably out of here now. My presence here, since I started my own forum, has become inappropriate, in my opinion. So, If you want to carry on this debate, you'll have to find me there.

Hasta.
"Do you really think in all the time I've been here that I've been striving for popularity?" YEP!

"Seriously?" OH YES, 100%.

"I don't care what atheists think about me. Why would I?" BECAUSE WE"RE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO TOLERATE YOU.

"You are, after all, an atheist." CAN"T QUITE LET GO OF ALL THAT PREJUDICE YOU"VE BEEN PROGRAMMED WITH, CAN YOU ROBOT MAN.

"I'm probably out of here now." YOU'LL BE BACK. YOU NEED THE TOLERANCE.

"So, If you want to carry on this debate, you'll have to find me there." SORRY, NO, I GOT SOME CLOTHES TO HANG OUT.
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02-01-2013, 08:03 AM
RE: King of Kings
(02-01-2013 01:46 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(31-12-2012 02:48 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Now...I think when you calm down, you have the integrity and intelligence to objectively look at yourself. Can you understand why you're hardly Mr popular?

Do you really think in all the time I've been here that I've been striving for popularity? Seriously? I could have pretended to be an atheist anytime I wanted to. Hell, I don't even believe in the Christian version of God and have written arguments that show the impossibility of it. I could easily have come in here and been the atheist of atheists. Yes

You have to understand: I don't care what atheists think about me. Why would I? You are, after all, an atheist. I swear to God, my attitude and the way I think about atheists is exactly the way Agent Smith thinks of Morpheus.




Even Christians don't think of you all that way. Blink

But here's the deal. I'm probably out of here now. My presence here, since I started my own forum, has become inappropriate, in my opinion. So, If you want to carry on this debate, you'll have to find me there.

Hasta.


Ed, how can we miss you if you don't go? Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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