King of the Jews
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21-12-2013, 06:08 PM
King of the Jews
This is one of Jesus' titles that has always amused and puzzled me. Amongst his many honorifics we have:
  • The Son of God
  • The Messiah
  • oh, and King of this bunch of insignificant herdsmen that the Romans conquered and kicked the crap out of.

It's a little like introducing yourself as Palpatine, Emperor of the Galaxy, Lord of the Sith and Parking Attendant for Docking Bay 94.

Does anybody know of an explanation for this other than the need to try and fulfill prophesy?
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21-12-2013, 06:27 PM
RE: King of the Jews
(21-12-2013 06:08 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  This is one of Jesus' titles that has always amused and puzzled me. Amongst his many honorifics we have:
  • The Son of God
  • The Messiah
  • oh, and King of this bunch of insignificant herdsmen that the Romans conquered and kicked the crap out of.

It's a little like introducing yourself as Palpatine, Emperor of the Galaxy, Lord of the Sith and Parking Attendant for Docking Bay 94.

Does anybody know of an explanation for this other than the need to try and fulfill prophesy?

It was the only title the actual Yeshua ben Josef claimed (if there was such a person) all of his actions make much more sense if you remove the miracle bullshit and just look at him as a wannabe usurper with dubious ties to the throne of David. Remember crucifixion was not a punishment for upsetting the Jewish temple (he would have been stoned if that was what he was executed for) Yeshua was executed for sedition and violation of Pax Romana, the only crimes that crucifixion was the proscribed punishment for.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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21-12-2013, 06:42 PM
RE: King of the Jews
It's one of my favorite harpoons for Fundies to point out to them that Jesus didn't suffer and die on the cross for their sins but rather for his own political ambitions.
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21-12-2013, 07:04 PM
RE: King of the Jews
Assuming there was any jesus to suffer at all.

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21-12-2013, 07:12 PM
RE: King of the Jews
(21-12-2013 07:04 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Assuming there was any jesus to suffer at all.

I lean towards there being an actual figure however it is much like King Arthur, the similarities between the inspiration and the later tales is little to none.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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21-12-2013, 08:23 PM
RE: King of the Jews
(21-12-2013 07:12 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(21-12-2013 07:04 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Assuming there was any jesus to suffer at all.

I lean towards there being an actual figure however it is much like King Arthur, the similarities between the inspiration and the later tales is little to none.
What is Legend?
Although I'm not sure it was just one person, could of been a fusion of several.

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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21-12-2013, 08:26 PM
RE: King of the Jews
(21-12-2013 08:23 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  
(21-12-2013 07:12 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I lean towards there being an actual figure however it is much like King Arthur, the similarities between the inspiration and the later tales is little to none.
What is Legend?
Although I'm not sure it was just one person, could of been a fusion of several.

The authors of the gospels take great pains to move him to certain spots rather than just having him be there (think Luke and the census) that leads me to suspect that there was an actual man at some point. It is however speculation either way.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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21-12-2013, 08:52 PM (This post was last modified: 21-12-2013 09:09 PM by Hafnof.)
RE: King of the Jews
But that could easily be to fit supposed prophecy as opposed to the life of some man. For example the misunderstood requirement for him to be a nazarene caused him to live in Nazareth in the narrative. Being born in Bethlehem established him as being of the line of David. etc etc. Most of these seem post hoc to me rather than being evidence of sticking to some kind of timeline of a real individual.

That said, if there were multiple individuals making up the Christ narrative - the sudden changes of scene would tend to make more sense rather than less I would think.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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21-12-2013, 09:24 PM
RE: King of the Jews
(21-12-2013 08:52 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  But that could easily be to fit supposed prophecy as opposed to the life of some man. For example the misunderstood requirement for him to be a nazarene caused him to live in Nazareth in the narrative. Being born in Bethlehem established him as being of the line of David. etc etc. Most of these seem post hoc to me rather than being evidence of sticking to some kind of timeline of a real individual.

That said, if there were multiple individuals making up the Christ narrative - the sudden changes of scene would tend to make more sense rather than less I would think.

I'm not really invested either way. I figure it is a crap-shoot in either direction so don't make it a major point in my counter apologetics. Whether or not there was some peasant son of a carpenter that got delusions of grandeur and got himself nailed to a cross is irrelevant to my position.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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21-12-2013, 09:33 PM (This post was last modified: 21-12-2013 10:28 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: King of the Jews
(21-12-2013 06:27 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(21-12-2013 06:08 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  This is one of Jesus' titles that has always amused and puzzled me. Amongst his many honorifics we have:
  • The Son of God
  • The Messiah
  • oh, and King of this bunch of insignificant herdsmen that the Romans conquered and kicked the crap out of.

It's a little like introducing yourself as Palpatine, Emperor of the Galaxy, Lord of the Sith and Parking Attendant for Docking Bay 94.

Does anybody know of an explanation for this other than the need to try and fulfill prophesy?

It was the only title the actual Yeshua ben Josef claimed (if there was such a person) all of his actions make much more sense if you remove the miracle bullshit and just look at him as a wannabe usurper with dubious ties to the throne of David. Remember crucifixion was not a punishment for upsetting the Jewish temple (he would have been stoned if that was what he was executed for) Yeshua was executed for sedition and violation of Pax Romana, the only crimes that crucifixion was the proscribed punishment for.

I disagree. Crucifixion was done by the thousands for any common trouble-maker who usurped the Pax Romana in occupied countries. They were not afforded trials. If he existed, the kernel of truth seems to lie with the ruckus in the temple, (with the ritual money changers), in a city whose economy was ENTIRELY, COMPLETELY built on the temple and the cycle of festivals and fees for the sacrificial offerings. He was a clear and present threat to the priests and the cash-cow the temple was in the status quo. Since the trial was entirely a mythical concoction, (many inconsistencies, NO Galilean peasant/nobody was EVER brought in front of Roman aristocrats, the Sanhedrin was NEVER ONCE called into session on Passover weekend), seems to me the "king of the Jews" was cooked up later to make the trial look real. Whatever happened, that part is VERY fishy. Seems possible one of the wnadering apocalyptic preachers, was later purposely conflated with Philo's Jesus (who was being preached BEFORE Yeshua ben Josef, "died for sins between the Earth and the Sun, and rose in three days").

What is fascinating is the amount of foreign domination that continued post-Exile, when Atraxerxes (from Persia) *allowed* (ie SET UP) the power structure that HE wanted when Ezra returned with the newly cooked up Pentateuch, all the way to the Roman invasion. There is NO WAY a Jewish peasant would have said "render unto Caesar ... ", that soon, during the occupation.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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