KingsChosen Journey (another question)
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28-01-2012, 05:08 PM
RE: KingsChosen Journey (another question)
kc: You wrote that you came to the conclusion that the higher power was the christian god. Do you think that this conclusion comes from the place where you spent your live? America has christianity widely spread... Maybe growing up in India you would have come to the conclusion it is an elephant god with 6 arms.
When you then read the bible again, and especially when you doing it now, are you not thinking about some things very critically? Especially getting that much input about it from here. How do you explain a lot of things to yourself? I mean the stuff that is not logic, inconsistent, not possible, completely cruel, moral questions,.....


And who wrote about never having really been Atheist? I think Thomas. I don't think that is fully true. Wanting religion to be true while being atheist, therefore lacking the belief for several reasons, will not make one fall back into it in itself. There has to be more to it. Though for me right now I can't see that "more". But that can't happen just like that without a reason.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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29-01-2012, 07:36 PM
RE: KingsChosen Journey (another question)
(28-01-2012 03:28 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I don't understand why you think people with differing ideologies can't have intelligent discussions.

Point taken, but...
The underlying question is why debate with theist who's ideology is totalitarian? What is there to debate? What the biblical scripture actually means? The bible's true - not it's not - is to - is not - is to...
This is why we say theology is like philosophy, but without the questions. The bible says homosexuals are to be killed. NO QUESTIONS ASKED! The better offering is to debate homosexual marriage on the position of equal rights versus social norms. The question of killing people for being gay is not on the table.
If your only question is, "What would Jesus do?", then go find a scripture passage that you like and do your thing. I my world, I want to know what YOU would do and how YOU came to YOUR ethical conclusion given a circumstance. In the Christian world you can debate Christian scripture all day, but in the secular thinking world this is like two 8 year old school girls arguing whether Barbie should kiss Ken on the first date. I don’t mean to sound disrespectful saying this, but this is the truth.
I like the name of this site "The Thinking Atheist". It's not "Christian hatters atheists are us", or "the bible is just stupid says us atheists". Even though there are some posts like this, they are not that interesting, unless they provide some form of sarcastic amusement at the expense of the religious. Even "thinking atheists” have to have some fun. We are the most hated minority on the planet, but I digress.
So the question then is should one consider the Atheist to Christian convert claim as genuine? Most people seem to give the claimant a pass on their conversion. They ask how can one judge the claim as not truthful? That does seem to be quite a large assumption, but I believe the claim of intellectual dishonesty, even if not intentional, can be made. Can I make this claim this based on character? Certainly not. Can I make this claim based on personnel reference? Obviously not. Can we make the claim based on rational understanding of the truth claim of atheism and the truth claim of theist? I believe such a claim may be possible.
Let’s start with the truth claim is atheism, “there is no god”. How does one come to this conclusion? The fact that the bible is full of errors and contradictions says nothing about the existence of god. So man wrote a poor document for holding up against 20th century science. That doesn’t mean that god doesn’t exist, but the atheist claims he doesn’t. We must dig deeper. We consider the suffering in the world, natural disasters, humans slaughtering humans for profit, but god just sits on the sidelines watching 9 million innocent children a year die. You know the other arguments and they are many. The atheist position is one of basically this: “I am rejecting the possibility of the existence of god even though I know that if he does exist and the holy books are true I’m going to fry in hell for eternity.” Still the atheist, and I’m one of them, makes this claim. You better be sure you’re right. Now suppose that I’m just going along minding my own business and “bam” it hits me, God is real! How could I have been so stupid? I begin reading the bible (the book that I read earlier and found lacking) through completely new eyes. Now the scriptures just jump out at me with new meaning. They are true and there are no contradictions, errors, just the truth of the Lord’s word. Then I find myself on the thinking atheist website telling atheists of my transformation and arguing scripture. To THIS I call BS. Sorry. Nice try. You’re a crusading Christian trying to denounce the atheist point of view.
Atheism is not a dogmatic ideology. The position is one of “profound” understanding of the human mind and society. Atheist rank first in their knowledge of the bible, higher that all Christian faiths. Many of us went through very emotional journeys to find ourselves in the position of finally accepting the obvious truth which we denied for so long because we didn’t want to believe that life had no meaning other than the meaning we chose. There is no divine creator watching over us, helping us when we fall. We pick ourselves up and get going. There is no special plan for our lives. Our lives are our own responsibility and we bare the full burden of making that decision. So, tell me how you moved from the position of atheist to theist again?
To all the true atheists reading this, this message is for you. There is a meaning to your life and it’s yours to decide. You are FREE from the bonds of theological bondage. Sartre says, “You are, before you are.” You are a being that was not designed for a purpose in mind. A chair is a chair because its’ essence is chairness. It was a chair before it was ever made. You are you and not defined by anything. You are who you want to be. An artist, an engineer, a teacher, a philosopher. You are who you will be by your own intention. Now live free.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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29-01-2012, 11:08 PM
RE: KingsChosen Journey (another question)
(29-01-2012 07:36 PM)Thomas Wrote:  You’re a crusading Christian trying to denounce the atheist point of view.

Nah he's effectively got the same p.o.v. as most of us, and while regrettably he thinks many of us are going to hell, he's unusual in that if he has ever stated that, it's not been with the added "You filthy stinking unbelieving bastards, how could you be so nasty to my nasty God? I am personally insulted" that many Christians tack on. i.e. he admits we have a decent case here Tongue
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30-01-2012, 09:16 AM (This post was last modified: 30-01-2012 09:18 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: KingsChosen Journey (another question)
(28-01-2012 05:08 PM)Leela Wrote:  kc: You wrote that you came to the conclusion that the higher power was the christian god. Do you think that this conclusion comes from the place where you spent your live? America has christianity widely spread... Maybe growing up in India you would have come to the conclusion it is an elephant god with 6 arms.

Honestly, you make a very good point. I can't say either way because that's something that I don't have experience with; however, I'm convinced if God elected me then no matter when I was born; He would reveal Himself to me.

Quote:When you then read the bible again, and especially when you doing it now, are you not thinking about some things very critically? Especially getting that much input about it from here. How do you explain a lot of things to yourself? I mean the stuff that is not logic, inconsistent, not possible, completely cruel, moral questions,.....

I'm very critical of the text. I shred it. Unlike most Christians, I enter Bible analysis with a clean slate. God reveals what He wants to me, and I address all the issues in varying ways. Look at the monster Ask a Theist thread for further explanations.
Thomas, I went from unbelieving to believing in an instant. I could not explain it.
(29-01-2012 11:08 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(29-01-2012 07:36 PM)Thomas Wrote:  You’re a crusading Christian trying to denounce the atheist point of view.

Nah he's effectively got the same p.o.v. as most of us, and while regrettably he thinks many of us are going to hell, he's unusual in that if he has ever stated that, it's not been with the added "You filthy stinking unbelieving bastards, how could you be so nasty to my nasty God? I am personally insulted" that many Christians tack on. i.e. he admits we have a decent case here Tongue

Pretty much this.

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