Kingschosen - A Metaphorically Induced Interpretation
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02-02-2012, 11:46 AM
RE: Kingschosen - A Metaphorically Induced Interpretation
(02-02-2012 09:45 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  It's disingenuous to believe that a God created the science that we both believe in? It's disingenuous to personally believe in an answer to an "unanswerable" question - "Where and how did this all begin?"

You might (don't know what you believe) say "I don't know. We'll never know."
Some scientist will give their theories, but they are just that - theories. They can never know for sure.
I say "God did it."

How is this disingenuous?

Ummm...god did not create Science. We did. Yikes.

It is disingenuous because Science CAN answer all kinds of questions. It repeatedly asks the god question where it never gets past hypothesis.
Your "God did it" thinking is truly disingenuous.
If there was something there, Science would be ALL over it. For you to make claims and try to support them with Science is a problem.
Kinda like your two Adams thing. Whatever way you can justify your belief and your particular vision of Science, then whoopee!
Science may not know all the answers to the mystery of the universe. When it doesn't know something, it says so.
However, Science is learning more and more every day. It uses modern methods to ferret out wacky stuff while theists like you has to continually change in order to keep up.
It seems highly unlikely to me that 150 years ago (pre-Darwin) you would have even considered the two Adam idea.

It's all in your head, because there is no other place it could be.
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02-02-2012, 11:53 AM
RE: Kingschosen - A Metaphorically Induced Interpretation
Probably not, but then before Darwin I find it highly unlikely any of us would be talking about evolution....

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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02-02-2012, 12:08 PM
RE: Kingschosen - A Metaphorically Induced Interpretation
(02-02-2012 11:53 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Probably not, but then before Darwin I find it highly unlikely any of us would be talking about evolution....

Not true. Before Darwin, many people thought that evolution was likely true - including Charles's grandfather, Erasmus Darwin.

What Charles Darwin accomplished was providing a basis for evolution (natural selection) and a mountain of evidence supporting the theory.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-02-2012, 12:28 PM
RE: Kingschosen - A Metaphorically Induced Interpretation
And that applies to the layman how? Sure lots of people thought about it. And the vast majority of people didn't. Kind of my point.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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02-02-2012, 12:30 PM
RE: Kingschosen - A Metaphorically Induced Interpretation
(02-02-2012 12:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 11:53 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Probably not, but then before Darwin I find it highly unlikely any of us would be talking about evolution....

Not true. Before Darwin, many people thought that evolution was likely true - including Charles's grandfather, Erasmus Darwin.

What Charles Darwin accomplished was providing a basis for evolution (natural selection) and a mountain of evidence supporting the theory.

In fact -any farmer worth his salt was VERY aware of evolution long before Darwin. They didn't have a word for it or think it a fancy system of thought, but they were quite familiar with the goings on of animals and plants.
Darwin's work only became scandalous when hijacked by the church... the way everything does.

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02-02-2012, 12:36 PM
RE: Kingschosen - A Metaphorically Induced Interpretation
I would argue that they weren't aware of evolution at all. Not so far as humanity was concerned. They were created by god. The same way there are animal breeders who still believe in creation.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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02-02-2012, 12:42 PM
RE: Kingschosen - A Metaphorically Induced Interpretation
Well... no... I probably would not have.

But why is that an issue? Does that change God?

I'm the imperfect being cable of mistakes; not God.

In Biblical days, the peoples of the earth believed the world was flat. Does that change God?

No. God is unchanging.

What changes then?

Our understanding of God. As our intelligence evolves, so does our understanding and knowledge of who God is and His plan.

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02-02-2012, 01:10 PM
RE: Kingschosen - A Metaphorically Induced Interpretation
(02-02-2012 12:42 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Well... no... I probably would not have.

But why is that an issue? Does that change God?

I'm the imperfect being cable of mistakes; not God.

In Biblical days, the peoples of the earth believed the world was flat. Does that change God?

No. God is unchanging.

What changes then?

Our understanding of God. As our intelligence evolves, so does our understanding and knowledge of who God is and His plan.

It is an issue as it demonstrates clearly your ability to conform to true knowledge while hopelessly clinging to your faith.

"Does that change God?" (question loaded with god gunk right there)
It is your pathetic understanding of how the universe works which allows YOU to conclude that you have "knowledge of who God is and His plan".

No ONE thing that we know to be true has a supernatural explanation. NOTHING.
This includes your personal visions and truths about ghosts and the like that you, in your own mind, somehow know to be true.

Anyway, all the evidence and knowledge achieved by mankind to date SHOULD make you think twice about your vacant god and what is and what is not fantasy.
But you prefer the fantasy and comfy 'god chose me feeling' and will selectively reject all reality that does not fit. Ahhh.....

Keep preaching it brother, keep on preachin' on.

It's all in your head, because there is no other place it could be.
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02-02-2012, 01:37 PM
RE: Kingschosen - A Metaphorically Induced Interpretation
(02-02-2012 12:36 PM)lucradis Wrote:  I would argue that they weren't aware of evolution at all. Not so far as humanity was concerned. They were created by god. The same way there are animal breeders who still believe in creation.

I might argue that Darwin learned as much from the farmers of the English countryside as he did from the previous scientific essays written concerning human populations and his contemporaries whose writings formed the groundwork for Darwin's refinements.

The following are a couple of snippets from an interesting site about Darwin the man:

Darwin began to speculate on how new species could arise by natural observable causes. His idiosyncratic eclecticism led him to investigate some unconventional evidence. He made countless inquiries of animal breeders, both farmers and hobbyists like pigeon fanciers, trying to understand how they made distinct breeds of plants and animals. Gradually Darwin concluded that organisms were infinitely variable, and that the supposed limits or barriers to species was a belief without foundation. In modern terms we would say that Darwin came to accept that life evolves. One conventional view of the time was that species had been created where they are now found, in accordance with the environment. Few men of science then held to the view that there had been only a single species creation event. The fossil evidence seemed to show very many creations had occurred in different geological eras.

Darwin read Thomas Malthus's Essay on the Principle of Population (1798).
... He realised that an enormous proportion of living things are always destroyed before they can reproduce. This must be true because every species would otherwise breed enough to fill the earth in a few hundred generations. Instead populations remain roughly stable year after year. The only way this can be so is that most offspring (from pollen, to seeds and eggs) do not survive long enough to reproduce.

Darwin, already concentrating on how new varieties of life might be formed, suddenly realised that the key was whatever made a difference between those that survive to reproduce and those that do not. He came to call this open-ended collection of causes 'natural selection' because it was analogous to breeders choosing which individuals to breed from and thus changing a breed markedly over time.

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02-02-2012, 06:30 PM
RE: Kingschosen - A Metaphorically Induced Interpretation
... Not sure where To go with this lol.


I fully agree that farmers may have been aware of what was happening with selective breeding in animals. I also fully agree that other people were testing the waters of evolutionary science.
I also agree that Darwin likely learned a lot from both groups of people.

All I was saying is that the average person wasn't likely to be aware of evolution at all and my bet would be that even the vast majority of farmers helping evolution along weren't likely to have associated what they were doing with it happening to humans too. That's where my animal breeder comment came from. I've known a surprising amount of breeders, from horse breeders to dog breeders all utilizing a specific skill set that one might think would lead them to have a basic understanding of evolution... And yet.... 6 days everyone.

But this whole thing is mute. It not only doesn't matter it's also now sp far away from any meaning as to lack any justifiable reason fOr continuation.

So to throw a wrench in it..... PENIS.

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