Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
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23-03-2011, 06:05 PM
 
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
I live in Ocala, FL about 40 miles from Gainesville. I remember when Pastor Terry Jones was in the news before. He was going to have a large Koran burning on the church grounds.
There was so much national news about it and a lot of pressure on him not to do it that he decide not to go through with it.
I think he has a long history of trying to stir up trouble in different religions.
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23-03-2011, 06:08 PM
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
Isn't this guy the same penis that wanted to burn a Qur'an at the height of the tensions over the proposed mosque in New York City located a few blocks from where the twin towers once stood? (I refuse to call it by its blipvert name)

Hey, gaglamesh731.

I'm with you.

I mean, if burning stuff gets someone off, if they see it as a viable form of protest, more power to em. They just to be ready to enjoy the consequences.

But book burning, in the Fahrenheit 451 sense, has one purpose. Memes are stored inside our memory. In our brain. Books are like external hard drives for ideas. Burn the book, slow the spread of the idea. It's an enemy to pretty much all things decent.

I think for now, he's an agitator looking to grab headlines. A German ex-pat living a sad little existence. What he's doing is ultimately harmless but food for The Pundit Army. If he starts gathering Qur'ans by the thousands and burning them, then that'll be a problem, but I don't think he has the huevos.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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23-03-2011, 06:17 PM
 
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
(23-03-2011 06:08 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Isn't this guy the same penis that wanted to burn a Qur'an at the height of the tensions over the proposed mosque in New York City located a few blocks from where the twin towers once stood? (I refuse to call it by its blipvert name)

Hey, gaglamesh731.

I'm with you.

I mean, if burning stuff gets someone off, if they see it as a viable form of protest, more power to em. They just to be ready to enjoy the consequences.

But book burning, in the Fahrenheit 451 sense, has one purpose. Memes are stored inside our memory. In our brain. Books are like external hard drives for ideas. Burn the book, slow the spread of the idea. It's an enemy to pretty much all things decent.

I think for now, he's an agitator looking to grab headlines. A German ex-pat living a sad little existence. What he's doing is ultimately harmless but food for The Pundit Army. If he starts gathering Qur'ans by the thousands and burning them, then that'll be a problem, but I don't think he has the huevos.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Yes, he is the one that wanted to do the burning when they were having all that trouble in New York City. He got a lot of national publicity about it.
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23-03-2011, 06:44 PM
 
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
(23-03-2011 05:26 PM)gaglamesh731 Wrote:  And how do you think people will take the book burning ?
Simply as a protest or a direct assault on their most desperately guarded values ?
My only worry is that this is counter productive. That instead of making people less radical they will see the west as monsters and jump into radical arms.
The Koran is just a book.
We can handle it - we have the reason and logic to debunk it at any said time. We don't have to burn it just to show off. We have to take the superior political position in this matter. We have to stand on a pillar and shout louder than any extremist imam out there : "look at the west.we are not out to destroy you.those are lies.look at our actions".
The violent , provocative , "in your face" attitude is not the best course of action.Reason , empathy and respect for our fellow man may prove invaluable in convincing them to abandon a violent dogma hammered into them fro birth.
I'd rather "convert" radicals than fight them.
And while you're trying to convert them, they're working to kill you.

Interestingly enough, when Saddam was still in power Christian Iraqi were permitted to worship openly. When Saddam went into hiding and American and allied forces came into the area, Christians had to go underground. To this day they worship in fear of the radical element of Islam finding them and killing the Apostate Iraqi.

Burning a Koran on American soil is a right of freedom of expression. As I said, it was intended by this Pastor to send a message to radical Muslims and as such, if he's stopped from doing that by fellow Americans or even our Government, while his church website was shut down for awhile before what was originally the 9/11 burning date, then the radical element wins. Especially when the violent element of Islam has no problem being in the face of those who they believe deserve to be killed, no matter who they are. Men, women, children.
Hell, a Professor at a University in Minnesota a couple of years ago retired early because she had a service dog she brought with her to class. She retired because certain male Muslim students were making death threats against her dog, because dog's are considered vile animals in Islam. The University, to their shame, sided with the students rights to express their faith's tenets regarding the animal and the Professor sided with surviving both herself and her dog.
Interestingly enough in that same year, Muslim cab drivers who had been discriminating in picking up airport fares, tried to sue for the right to do that legally when they cited the tenets of their faith giving them the right to refuse service to "scantily" clad women, people with service dog's and anyone carrying alcohol.
They were refused. However, there is now a Muslim foot washing area at the Minneapolis airport, so that Muslims can wash their feet while on duty.

It's that bold intent to use the first Amendment of this nation as a vehicle to discriminate against select American's that forewarns America what a fringe radical intolerant element of Islam stands to achieve, if we simply lay down and say, oh well we have to tolerate them because it's their faith. We have to hope we can set an example by not objecting to their demands, that we're not their enemy and then those radicals will realize we're not an enemy and they'll become a kinder more gentle Muslim.

That's not going to happen. The disrespect is afforded when Muslims think they have a right to special privilege in the name of their faith, so they can violate the American's with Disabilities act, commit animal cruelty, threaten people's lives, kill their own daughter(s) in the name of honor, because they've immigrated from a Muslim country into one they think must become so just to accommodate them under the auspices of our first Amendment.
And the reason many of them think they stand to acquire that exemption from respecting the laws of this nation so that they as people of faith have to be law abiding as well, is because of those predecessors who the world over have demonstrated if they're not pandered to they'll kill us.

You know that old saying, give an inch and they'll take a mile? With Islam, that's not just an old axiom. That's reality. When someone sends a buddy of mine a postcard from the Netherlands and there in the foreground stand minarets, because the Muslim faith has interjected itself into all aspects of society including Government, make no mistake that the Muslim religion and the Koran and Hadith that inspire the faithful, command that the whole world is Muslim. The peace that people think is Islam, is not so. Islam is a religion of peace when the whole world is Islam and all people are Muslim.
The proof is in the sura themselves. Jihad is not possible, if a religion is peace.
And that's why, given Islam is greatly represented in symbolism, burning the book that is the map, the guidepost to achieving the end result, is the one certain way to send the message that there shall be a fight. Just like there's always been when the people of the book sought to rule the world by inches, one bloody drop at a time. Islam is terrorism. Just because some Muslims aren't violent, are kind, are welcoming to other faiths and people, are what is considered "moderate", doesn't mean that's what Islam is. That they call themselves moderate in the first place says that their opposite is radical and that they choose not to advance or practice the fundamental aspect of Islam.

I was seeing a Muslim when I was in my late teens. He was richer than God, and a student at the local University. He was from Kuwait and as we got to talking one day, discussing how our relationship would go if it grew more serious, because at that point we'd barely kissed, I learned what was expected of me as a "mere woman".
Wrong woman! I left his dorm room without a glance back and never saw him again. You see, Muslims very often expect others to conform to their standards of faith. It's why any Muslim that leaves the faith and converts to another is very often worthy of death as an Apostate. It's why right now in Iraq, Christian Iraqi in their home country are very quiet about what they believe. Because right there at home, they'll be hunted down and killed by Muslims, who see it as their duty to god. That's not representative of a religion of peace. But it is by the book.


This is an excerpt from an article and the interview with the Gainesville Pastor when he was first planning the Burn a Koran Day on September 11th of last year, as to why he was doing this.

"We want to send a very clear message, we want to remember those who were murdered and killed on 9/11," said Jones. "And we also want to send a very clear message to radical Islam. We see that all over the world, we see that all over Europe. We want to send a very clear message to them, to Muslims, that if they are in America, they are free here to worship, but they must honor and respect our constitution. We want to send a very clear message that we do not want Sharia law and Sharia courts. That is what our international burn a Koran day is about." (Source)

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24-03-2011, 02:33 PM
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
@GassyKitten
I'm not arguing with you on these points :
1.Freedom of speech allows you to burn books.
2.Radical Islam is dangerous

But I don't see book burning as having a positive effect.I can understand "draw mohammed day" when you peacefully protest , but book burning has always been a way to censor and hardly a form of protest.
As for religion , all monotheistic faiths have violent tenants in their holy books.I mean , c'mon , the inquisition and crusades and witch trials were motivated by the Bible.
Yes there are Muslims in Europe yet their terrorists attacks are a joke here - literally.Most terrorist attacks in Europe are carried out by radical political groups:
http://www.europol.europa.eu/publication...AT2007.pdf
(see page 13 in the report)

Sorry if I don't see your point of view but Europe cocked up once with Jews and 6 million died on my continent.I'm not letting radicals take over again.Muslims are a non-threat right now no matter what the media says.Yes they can be stubborn in their way of life , but so what ? One day they'll change , and it won't be because I burned their book.
They want to kill me ? So would some Christians if they heard I support gay people and abortion. Some radical Jews would murder me for supporting peace between Israel and Palestine.
A lot of religious nuts would want me dead - that doesn't make me stoop to their level.

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

Proud of my genetic relatives Big Grin
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24-03-2011, 03:58 PM
 
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
While I have never had occasion to burn a book, even one that is damaged because I recycle them instead, my argument revolves around the right to and for the reason noted.

In the States there are what's known as Lawfare litigation happening now.

So I see burning a Koran as a means of sending a message that the text that inspires a people to be radical in the name of it's tenets and the man made faith it represents, is a non-violent means of defiance.
It's not a military campaign like during the Nazi era, it's not on par with the act of Qin Shi Huang, it's not reminiscent even of the fictional Fahrenheit 451. However, it is figurative repudiation of the weapon that inspires radicalism to advance.

Heinrich Heine said, "Where they burn books, they will end in burning human beings." In the case of radical's in Islam they burn people, so burning their book is simply a matter of self defense.

As for hoping one day they'll change. I would declare since they haven't changed in over 1400 years, there's little chance they'll see the light in our lifetime. In fact, for the Fundamentalist Muslim it's everyone else that needs to change.
And sure, there are other holy books that inspire zealots of every stripe in the religious world. Unfortunately, it's the zealot Muslims that are the most offensive now. And despite how easy it is to say it's the media blowing it all out of proportion, theirs is simply a duty to report what's happening. They don't create the Muslim radicalism that's taking root and working to install changes throughout the world.

Turning a blind eye to what's happening, thinking it's not really as bad as all that, or making pardon for what is going on saying it's all a matter of tolerance and entitlement under the auspices of freedom of religion, is what permits the seed of the radical agenda to take root as it want's when it plays on the liberal ideology that says it's OK to let just a little bit of change occur, because it's a matter of tolerance and one doesn't want to be deemed xenophobic or intolerant.
Besides, it's just a book. When a book takes precedent over lives, when a non-violent protest involving burning that which inspires an enemy to conquest could have sent a message that radicalism is not tolerated and shall be met with radical counter protests like burning the holy book that inspires radical Islam, the issue is far deeper than setting flame to page.

If burning a Koran would stop radical Islam from it's blood letting and political agenda the world over, I'd grab a lighter and set fire to the one in my personal library right now. Anyone would, if those were the stakes. If they wouldn't well, their priorities are skewed because as I said, books don't bleed.
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24-03-2011, 07:55 PM
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
It has to go both ways though, at this point Christians are convinced they own the US. You can't attack Islamic fundamentalists for expecting their desires to supersede rights without also arguing against the everyday Christians who feel that the country is made specifically for them and constantly flex laws in their favor.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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24-03-2011, 08:20 PM
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
(24-03-2011 03:58 PM)GassyKitten Wrote:  While I have never had occasion to burn a book, even one that is damaged because I recycle them instead, my argument revolves around the right to and for the reason noted.

In the States there are what's known as Lawfare litigation happening now.

So I see burning a Koran as a means of sending a message that the text that inspires a people to be radical in the name of it's tenets and the man made faith it represents, is a non-violent means of defiance.
It's not a military campaign like during the Nazi era, it's not on par with the act of Qin Shi Huang, it's not reminiscent even of the fictional Fahrenheit 451. However, it is figurative repudiation of the weapon that inspires radicalism to advance.

Heinrich Heine said, "Where they burn books, they will end in burning human beings." In the case of radical's in Islam they burn people, so burning their book is simply a matter of self defense.

As for hoping one day they'll change. I would declare since they haven't changed in over 1400 years, there's little chance they'll see the light in our lifetime. In fact, for the Fundamentalist Muslim it's everyone else that needs to change.
And sure, there are other holy books that inspire zealots of every stripe in the religious world. Unfortunately, it's the zealot Muslims that are the most offensive now. And despite how easy it is to say it's the media blowing it all out of proportion, theirs is simply a duty to report what's happening. They don't create the Muslim radicalism that's taking root and working to install changes throughout the world.

Turning a blind eye to what's happening, thinking it's not really as bad as all that, or making pardon for what is going on saying it's all a matter of tolerance and entitlement under the auspices of freedom of religion, is what permits the seed of the radical agenda to take root as it want's when it plays on the liberal ideology that says it's OK to let just a little bit of change occur, because it's a matter of tolerance and one doesn't want to be deemed xenophobic or intolerant.
Besides, it's just a book. When a book takes precedent over lives, when a non-violent protest involving burning that which inspires an enemy to conquest could have sent a message that radicalism is not tolerated and shall be met with radical counter protests like burning the holy book that inspires radical Islam, the issue is far deeper than setting flame to page.

If burning a Koran would stop radical Islam from it's blood letting and political agenda the world over, I'd grab a lighter and set fire to the one in my personal library right now. Anyone would, if those were the stakes. If they wouldn't well, their priorities are skewed because as I said, books don't bleed.
Some of this post is grossly unfair and ignorant. Islam is no more a homogeneous ideology than Christianity or even atheism. Islam has changed over the past 1400 years. Much of that change is for the worse, but that's only because the Islam of the thirteenth century was nearly as vibrant and inclusive as the Christianity of the post-enlightenment. In many ways, American Christianity is headed back toward the same dark ages the Taliban is enforcing today. Yet in other parts of the world, liberated Muslims are fighting to overthrow the shackles of their clerical oppressors.

Seriously, for a backwoods young-Earth Christian preacher to dare to hold a mock trial accusing the Koran of causing murder, subjugation, and jihad is to turn a blind eye to the fact that his own book (the bible) has been responsible and is equally as guilty of the exact same crimes.
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24-03-2011, 09:10 PM
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
Make all the statements you want, denounce "radical Islam" all you like, draw a cartoon of Mohammed and publish it in a Danish newspaper, just don't ever set the newspaper on fire because book burning should never be accepted in any way shape or form. It is the enemy of all things. It doesn't just censor thoughts, it destroys them.

Hey, Gamutman.

Quote:Seriously, for a backwoods young-Earth Christian preacher to dare to hold a mock trial accusing the Koran of causing murder, subjugation, and jihad is to turn a blind eye to the fact that his own book (the bible) has been responsible and is equally as guilty of the exact same crimes.

I think more to the point, this guy is such a gonzo out there radical extremist that Fox News and SARAH PALIN denounced him. WTF! How far right do you have to be that the poster child and the mouthpiece of the Christian right distance themselves from you??? I mean come on! (Don't worry though. Fox still manages to get in some glorious lunacy completely divorced from reality. Fox News. The name you trust Big Grin )

This is a pretty good eample of the pot calling the kettle an extremist.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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25-03-2011, 07:02 AM
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
I agree with gamutman , back in the 13th century , Christianity was still in the dark and Islam was a much more tolerant religion.Baghdad was the center of knowledge and they kept up the knowledge of the roman and greek scholars. Europeans didn't just loot treasure during the crusades they also brought back knowledge.
The numbers on your keyboard are arabic for example. Astronomy , medicine all brought from the middle-east helped start the enlightenment.What makes me feel deeply hurt is that when the west sees the radicalization of the middle east they feel the need to keep up rather than provide a moderate counter-culture.
As for this pastor , he has a WBC style Church with very few members.I believe there are 50 families that work for free and the money goes to the church or something.And like WBC their radical position is all that gives them credit.

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

Proud of my genetic relatives Big Grin
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