Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
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25-03-2011, 12:13 PM
 
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
(24-03-2011 07:55 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  It has to go both ways though, at this point Christians are convinced they own the US. You can't attack Islamic fundamentalists for expecting their desires to supersede rights without also arguing against the everyday Christians who feel that the country is made specifically for them and constantly flex laws in their favor.
True. I was in a discussion with a Fundamentalist who saw secular society as having an agenda to overthrow his right to exercise his faith as a Christian. While that same person's ideal America would be a Christian Theocracy. He couldn't understand that secular society allows for the freedom of expression of all faiths, including his own, because he thought the only faith worthy of practice was Christianity and because secular society didn't concur, it was the enemy.

So it is indeed ironic that this minister is burning a Koran, when his Bible is just as relevant to what causes psychotic socially dysfunctional behaviors in certain members of society who see it as a guidepost in a rise to action against what they perceive as an enemy.

However, as mentioned , while there are the far right extremist Christians who murder abortion doctors in the name of pro-life, and who are in our Legislative halls trying to control all of society using Biblical tenets in trying to pass laws forbidding a woman's right to choice. And other social issues as well, I think what is of concern with regard to Muslim extremism is they're forthright in carrying out terrorist acts, in an effort to destroy the infidels they believe have too much freedom so as to be let to live, or to live in peace.
So it is symbolic as someone mentioned, in burning the Koran and thereby destroying the meme related to it,at least in the visual effect it has on the believer in that which is burning.
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25-03-2011, 06:03 PM
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
I don't think there is any argument that in a free society people have rights that allow them to do reprehensible things, including burning books, burning flags, burning icons that are of importance to other people for the sole purpose of being incendiary. That is the price of a free society and I honestly would not have it any other way. That does not mean the more enlightened amongst us have to applaud it, but we do have to tolerate it.

Gassykitten - I've read your arguments here and I'll admit that they made me stop and think this through a bit. But, ultimately, I think gaglamesh's initial point is exactly right. Book burning is about as low brow and hateful a thing as there is to do. I see your point about the difference between burning books like in Nazi Germany and what was done here, but I'm really at a loss to understand how you can defend this. I do see the nuance to this but, ultimately, it's the same old story of an ignoramus who lacks the intelligence and creativity to properly express himself and instead resorts to the most vile means at his disposal. How can you possible defend that?

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25-03-2011, 08:25 PM
 
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
(25-03-2011 06:03 PM)BnW Wrote:  I don't think there is any argument that in a free society people have rights that allow them to do reprehensible things, including burning books, burning flags, burning icons that are of importance to other people for the sole purpose of being incendiary. That is the price of a free society and I honestly would not have it any other way. That does not mean the more enlightened amongst us have to applaud it, but we do have to tolerate it.

Gassykitten - I've read your arguments here and I'll admit that they made me stop and think this through a bit. But, ultimately, I think gaglamesh's initial point is exactly right. Book burning is about as low brow and hateful a thing as there is to do. I see your point about the difference between burning books like in Nazi Germany and what was done here, but I'm really at a loss to understand how you can defend this. I do see the nuance to this but, ultimately, it's the same old story of an ignoramus who lacks the intelligence and creativity to properly express himself and instead resorts to the most vile means at his disposal. How can you possible defend that?
I can defend it as readily as I would argue someone has the right to burn a flag, burn a Bible, gather and protest holding hands standing against WBC. It's freedom of speech, which is part and parcel to freedom of expression as freedom of thought.

It is astonishing to me, it really really is, that there's this sit back in shock wide eyed open mouthed umbrage taking place over the burning of the Koran.
And by Americans, no less. It's so easy argue that we're atheists and we have a right to this, and we have a right to that, and we can post here and laugh at Theists and disrespect them post after post after post.

However, someone posts an article about an American Preacher in an American town setting fire to a Koran, and it's "low brow", "reprehensible", etc... And then the attacks devolve into personal attacks on himself, so that the criticism moves from addressing the act to attacking the actor.

And all of that is proffered by people who are saying these things because the assault on the man is justified, because the man sets fire to a book. The book is afforded more respect than the man. This book is set apart from being subject to the freedoms we otherwise believe we have to express who we are, freely as Americans. And then it gets even worse. Holding the Koran up as inviolable; how dare he burn a book! And in defense of that position there's an optional sacrifice mentioned. The Bible! It's just as worthy for it's content as is the Koran. The Bible is just as relevant as a tool used by deviant violent psychopaths, as is the Koran.

It's amazing! It really is.
How can I defend his actions?
Because the last time I checked this is America. Where you're free to disagree with what someone says, but you're not free to take away their right to speak freely. Where you're free not to watch someone's act of civil disobedience, but you're not entitled to stop them from speaking freely, as they assemble to protest what they believe need be protested. Where you're free to be an atheist, but you're not free to halt someone's freedom of religion.
And while all of that is true, the fact is the book is ash now. This is old news. And the world still rotates, the sun comes up tomorrow, and it set's in the west. A man made his point, as he was freely lawfully entitled to do and for the express reasons he gave for doing it.
And you all are free to have your opinions about that, but if words were actions, none of you would have ever let him commit to that expression, that protest,in that way.

And that's what's frightening about this whole article and the aftermath that's ensued here.

Because all of you defend why that would be so.
(24-03-2011 08:20 PM)gamutman Wrote:  Some of this post is grossly unfair and ignorant.
I think what is grossly unfair and ignorant about your statement, is that you don't know what you're talking about when you attempt to take me to task for your failure to understand anything I said.

In short, I addressed radical Muslims. Who don't care about progress, don't care about the evolution of their faith, they simply don't care that the world is moving forward, when the ultra right wing conservative zealot Muslim want's everything to stay old school.
They want their women to walk five paces behind their men. They want them to remain covered from head to toe, and there's even a movement now among some ultra right wing conservatives to preclude their women from having anything more than one eye visible in their covering, because they feel their women are becoming too westernized as they use makeup to decorate both eyes and make for a seductive immodest appearance.

It's the radical far right wing ultra conservatives that have been addressed in every one of my posts. Try to get that straight.
And this article is about the Koran burning, so hate for Christians may seem a fair counter target to an offensive protest, but do try to keep it on target instead of taking umbrage about the burning of a book that inspires psychopaths to gut their daughters, behead their wives, butcher American contractors, hijack and fly planes into buildings, set IED's that detonate with a cell phone call, strap women and children with explosives so as to take out Infidels, American soldiers and the collateral damage of their own people. Instead of saying in the face of all that, burning the book that compels the terrorism is the evil thing here and why not instead serve up a nice healthy dose of Christian or a tinder ready Bible?

It's lame and pathetic to say burning a book is reprehensible and always wrong,only to then say the Bible is just as or more so worthy of the flames than is the Koran.
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25-03-2011, 09:04 PM
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
I want to add something to this but I can't.... burning things is always seen as a violent act by people and thought to insight more acts by the opposition. I don't really care about burning though, outside of burning down libraries and the loss of countless documents with no replacement. The guy's character is pretty shoddy, and it's hard to really suggest why he did it is justifiable. This being because it's understood how he was viewing it. US citizens have serious issues with the idea of freedom of religion, to most this looks like an attack on it by saying the Qur'an should be burned for atrocities. I have an issue with a fundamentalist Christian making this message myself because I don't want him to feel he has the right to say what is right for the US.

Yes Muslims have been the most successful religious group when it comes to superseding rights, and we shouldn't accept that. But the guy whose saying this is in the second most egregious religion.

The message did need to be said strongly so I'm kind of siding with Gassy on this. Though I feel the Christians are a larger danger for the US still.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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25-03-2011, 09:21 PM
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
(25-03-2011 08:25 PM)GassyKitten Wrote:  It's amazing! It really is.
How can I defend his actions?
Because the last time I checked this is America. Where you're free to disagree with what someone says, but you're not free to take away their right to speak freely. Where you're free not to watch someone's act of civil disobedience, but you're not entitled to stop them from speaking freely, as they assemble to protest what they believe need be protested. Where you're free to be an atheist, but you're not free to halt someone's freedom of religion.
And while all of that is true, the fact is the book is ash now. This is old news. And the world still rotates, the sun comes up tomorrow, and it set's in the west. A man made his point, as he was freely lawfully entitled to do and for the express reasons he gave for doing it.
And you all are free to have your opinions about that, but if words were actions, none of you would have ever let him commit to that expression, that protest,in that way.

And that's what's frightening about this whole article and the aftermath that's ensued here.

Because all of you defend why that would be so.

That's crap. I can distinguish between the right and the act. I absolutely believe in his right to protest, to dissent, to make his point in the most vile way possible. I agree with his right to do that as much as I agree with the right of the Klan to march and the Westboro Baptist idiots to spew their hate from any street corner they chose. That's what freedom is. I have no problem with the right. That doesn't mean that I have to take the next step and high five him for it. And, to make the leap that because I think he's wrong that I'd go the next step to infringe upon his rights is absurd.

And, as for who wants to interfere with freedoms, before you pass judgment you should take a little closer look at your own views. I'd defend his right to burn a Q'uron as much as I defended the rights of the WBC. That, however, is where you drew the line. Why? Because in that instance you sympathized with the targets of the Westboro people. Here, you don't, and you draw a different conclusion. Rights are just not for people we agree with. The people we agree with are easy to make the case for.

What's frightening here is not that people are appalled by someone who uses the same despicable tactics that small minded bigots have always used. What's frightening is the reaction where we base our opinions on who is involved instead of what is involved. That is the thought process that leads down the slope of restraint in inalienable freedoms.

I do think, however, that you make a very fair point about the comments that condemn this act but suggest a bible be burned as well. I think you were missing some of the irony of those statements, but it's still a fair observation.

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26-03-2011, 07:53 AM
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
Heym Gassy Kitten.

Quote:It is astonishing to me, it really really is, that there's this sit back in shock wide eyed open mouthed umbrage taking place over the burning of the Koran.

Free speech is great. I think it's the bomb diggity. But this guy is book-burning scum, same as someone who burns The Origin of Species is scum.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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26-03-2011, 08:21 AM
 
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
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26-03-2011, 10:14 AM
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
(26-03-2011 08:21 AM)GassyKitten Wrote:  And my observation in the matter of Koran burning observed just that, in the tenor afforded in attitudes in this post. It's those attitudes that bring challenge to the first amendment and just how far "inalienable" extends.
The death threats, the shutting down of the Gainesville Ministers website during the original reporting when Reverend Terry Jones was planning to burn the Koran on the 9th anniversary of 9/11 violated his free speech, but none the less the site was down for at least 2 days.

The ad hominem attacks that accompanied commentary about the planned event, that included his being called a traitor, a terrorist, demonstrated while one is free to speak and protest, they're not free from being spoken to in vile ways for daring to exercise what everyone thinks is an inalienable right. One that obviously is exercised at a cost.
It's reminiscent of what Bush43 said, when made aware of a not so flattering website dedicated to attacking him; there ought to be limits to freedom.
That is the underlying message behind the position that there's no reason to ever burn a book. My point of view was simply one doesn't have to agree with the book burning, but it's his right to do it for the reason's he feels it deserves to be torched.

If you can't see that, then read again. If you still can't see it, it's not my problem.

This is a ridiculous straw man argument. You're defending against an argument that no one made and then telling everyone else they are wrong. His "right" to do what he did was not questioned by anyone here. What was questioned was his actions and him actually doing it. Being disgusted by what he did is not nearly the same as screaming that his right to do so be taken away.

Bringing up the reaction that others had when he wanted to do this for 9/11 is another straw man because no one here was defending that position. Again, defending against an argument that no one made

Finally, you've actually adjusted your position on this issue during the course of this thread. Your original position was that it's not similar to past incidents of book burning because (and I apologize if I don't get this exactly right) he's not so much rejecting the book as much as the cultural impacts it has had. Now you've adjusted to questioning his actions is the same as arguing he should have on right to do it. Quite honestly, I thought your first argument made more sense.

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26-03-2011, 11:07 AM
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
(25-03-2011 08:25 PM)GassyKitten Wrote:  
(24-03-2011 08:20 PM)gamutman Wrote:  Some of this post is grossly unfair and ignorant.
I think what is grossly unfair and ignorant about your statement, is that you don't know what you're talking about when you attempt to take me to task for your failure to understand anything I said.

In short, I addressed radical Muslims. Who don't care about progress, don't care about the evolution of their faith, they simply don't care that the world is moving forward, when the ultra right wing conservative zealot Muslim want's everything to stay old school.
They want their women to walk five paces behind their men. They want them to remain covered from head to toe, and there's even a movement now among some ultra right wing conservatives to preclude their women from having anything more than one eye visible in their covering, because they feel their women are becoming too westernized as they use makeup to decorate both eyes and make for a seductive immodest appearance.

It's the radical far right wing ultra conservatives that have been addressed in every one of my posts. Try to get that straight.
And this article is about the Koran burning, so hate for Christians may seem a fair counter target to an offensive protest, but do try to keep it on target instead of taking umbrage about the burning of a book that inspires psychopaths to gut their daughters, behead their wives, butcher American contractors, hijack and fly planes into buildings, set IED's that detonate with a cell phone call, strap women and children with explosives so as to take out Infidels, American soldiers and the collateral damage of their own people. Instead of saying in the face of all that, burning the book that compels the terrorism is the evil thing here and why not instead serve up a nice healthy dose of Christian or a tinder ready Bible?

It's lame and pathetic to say burning a book is reprehensible and always wrong,only to then say the Bible is just as or more so worthy of the flames than is the Koran.
GK, as I said in my post, Some of this post is grossly unfair and ignorant. I didn't say all of it was.

Specifically, I was mostly addressing this one blanket statement. "As for hoping one day they'll change. I would declare since they haven't changed in over 1400 years, there's little chance they'll see the light in our lifetime."

That part is bullshit. True, in the next sentence you address fundamentalism specifically, but being specific after being all-inclusive doesn't mitigate the fact that your overall point addresses the whole.

If that was not your intention, then we actually agree. It did not, however, seem to be your intention as I read it - nor does it seem so after subsequent readings.

Bottom line, I would not deny Mr Jones his right to burn a Koran. Free speech means tolerating speech I disagree with. However, I recognize that in both Christianity and Islam the history is that a fundamentalist reading of their holy text leads to oppression and subjugation and violence, while a more metaphorical reading leads to less disgusting behavior, but also makes the books themselves secondary to the reinterpreted ideology.

Culturally speaking, Islamic states are capable of and have gone to both extremes of totalitarian and egalitarian; and so have Christian states. This fact makes Jone's trial idiotic and hypocritical. But his right to be a hypocritical idiot remains.
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26-03-2011, 03:52 PM
 
RE: Koran burned after Fla. church "trial"
Rolleyes I was not all inclusive, ever! That statement was relative to my statement regarding Radical Islam. But I'll make it easier for you to understand as the context of the prior statement seems to have confused you.


"As for hoping one day they'll change. I would declare since Far Right Wing Ultra Conservative Radical Muslims haven't changed in over 1400 years, there's little chance they'll see the light in our lifetime."
(26-03-2011 10:14 AM)BnW Wrote:  This is a ridiculous straw man argument. You're defending against an argument that no one made and then telling everyone else they are wrong. His "right" to do what he did was not questioned by anyone here. What was questioned was his actions and him actually doing it. Being disgusted by what he did is not nearly the same as screaming that his right to do so be taken away.

Bringing up the reaction that others had when he wanted to do this for 9/11 is another straw man because no one here was defending that position. Again, defending against an argument that no one made

Finally, you've actually adjusted your position on this issue during the course of this thread. Your original position was that it's not similar to past incidents of book burning because (and I apologize if I don't get this exactly right) he's not so much rejecting the book as much as the cultural impacts it has had. Now you've adjusted to questioning his actions is the same as arguing he should have on right to do it. Quite honestly, I thought your first argument made more sense.
Oh please do give yourself more credit than stooping to this. Your absurd "strawman" accusation is just that. You can't even keep it straight as to what I did say, and then you accuse me of conjuring a strawman. Quite honestly, I don't care which of my arguments you think made more sense. You haven't been able to keep any of them straight since you decided to challenge me.
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