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09-08-2017, 01:24 PM
RE: Korea
(09-08-2017 01:12 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 12:19 PM)Stefan Mayerschoff Wrote:  You're an idiot. When you bar an entire class of people, the majority of which are NOT enemies, simply because they share the same racial or religious characteristics, that's the textbook definition of discrimination/racism.

And pointing out to me that "Obama did it too" with regard to the Patriot Act will win you no points. It's one of the things I found most objectionable in an otherwise really great pair of presidential terms, along with his failure to close Gitmo.

We are not looking to bar them from entering the country based on their race (Islam is not a race) or religion. We (or at least myself) want to stop them, because they are not coming here with the same attitude that immigrants used to have. There was a time when they wanted to become a part of the culture. They are coming with the idea that they can bring about sharia law. They are making excellent progress. Already we have many fast food places afraid to serve pork (bacon), because they might be hit with a lawsuit. Little changes over time, makes countries and animal species unrecognizable after many generations. Some changes (cancer) are not good changes.

What mind-reading techniques did you use to determine that all previous immigrants wanted to become part of our culture (the Hasidic Jews, among others, didn't get the memo), or that all Muslim immigrants want to impose Sharia law?

Making unwarranted generalizations about an entire group of people is the very essence of discrimination.
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09-08-2017, 01:25 PM
RE: Korea
(09-08-2017 01:12 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 12:19 PM)Stefan Mayerschoff Wrote:  You're an idiot. When you bar an entire class of people, the majority of which are NOT enemies, simply because they share the same racial or religious characteristics, that's the textbook definition of discrimination/racism.

And pointing out to me that "Obama did it too" with regard to the Patriot Act will win you no points. It's one of the things I found most objectionable in an otherwise really great pair of presidential terms, along with his failure to close Gitmo.

We are not looking to bar them from entering the country based on their race (Islam is not a race) or religion. We (or at least myself) want to stop them, because they are not coming here with the same attitude that immigrants used to have. There was a time when they wanted to become a part of the culture. They are coming with the idea that they can bring about sharia law. They are making excellent progress. Already we have many fast food places afraid to serve pork (bacon), because they might be hit with a lawsuit. Little changes over time, makes countries and animal species unrecognizable after many generations. Some changes (cancer) are not good changes.

All you did was choose a different stereotype in order to discriminate. Instead of race or religion, you chose the very arbitrary and capricious quality "atitude"

Do you seriously think every immigrant comes in with the same attitude? If not, how do you police that? If you don't police it, is it fair to effectively punish all for the attitudes of a few?

Do you see the problem with categorically using ANY characteristic to discriminate? You made at least 3 categorical statements that cannot possibly apply to all immigrants, let alone all immigrants from middle eastern nations, or of the Muslim religion. You also ignore the pertinent past history which saw immigrants form into communities based on origin. Little Italy, Chinatown, Irish New York, Germantown, etc. You make it sound like they took their first steps off Ellis Island and tossed away everything that made them who they were for generations, or longer.
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09-08-2017, 01:26 PM
RE: Korea
(09-08-2017 01:24 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 01:12 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  We are not looking to bar them from entering the country based on their race (Islam is not a race) or religion. We (or at least myself) want to stop them, because they are not coming here with the same attitude that immigrants used to have. There was a time when they wanted to become a part of the culture. They are coming with the idea that they can bring about sharia law. They are making excellent progress. Already we have many fast food places afraid to serve pork (bacon), because they might be hit with a lawsuit. Little changes over time, makes countries and animal species unrecognizable after many generations. Some changes (cancer) are not good changes.

What mind-reading techniques did you use to determine that all previous immigrants wanted to become part of our culture (the Hasidic Jews, among others, didn't get the memo), or that all Muslim immigrants want to impose Sharia law?

Making unwarranted generalizations about an entire group of people is the very essence of discrimination.

I know that polls can be made to look however whoever is taking them look however they want, but the polls show a large enough amount of muslims want it, to make it something to worry about. To not see the potential threat there, is to be blind.
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09-08-2017, 01:33 PM
RE: Korea
(09-08-2017 01:26 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 01:24 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  What mind-reading techniques did you use to determine that all previous immigrants wanted to become part of our culture (the Hasidic Jews, among others, didn't get the memo), or that all Muslim immigrants want to impose Sharia law?

Making unwarranted generalizations about an entire group of people is the very essence of discrimination.

I know that polls can be made to look however whoever is taking them look however they want, but the polls show a large enough amount of muslims want it, to make it something to worry about. To not see the potential threat there, is to be blind.

So let's take your fear to its conclusion. We (at this point) still reside in a democratic republic, do we not? So in order to bring about the Sharia Law you fear, Muslims would need to have their interests represented by a supermajority at all levels of government, would they not? Those representatives would have to draft and pass legislation making that the new legal code. Then those laws would have to withstand constitutional challenge, perhaps to the Supreme Court, which also means the SCOTUS judges would have to be on board with Sharia Law.

How on earth do you seriously expect all the above to happen?
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09-08-2017, 01:34 PM
RE: Korea
We have a thread about immigration in the politics section. This one is about Korea.

We are trying to keep this in a bit of an order so we can add onto threads as things develop and have coherent conversations.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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09-08-2017, 01:35 PM
RE: Korea
(09-08-2017 01:34 PM)Dom Wrote:  We have a thread about immigration in the politics section. This one is about Korea.

We are trying to keep this in a bit of an order so we can add onto threads as things develop and have coherent conversations.

Duly Noted, thanks!
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09-08-2017, 01:38 PM
RE: Korea
(09-08-2017 01:26 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 01:24 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  What mind-reading techniques did you use to determine that all previous immigrants wanted to become part of our culture (the Hasidic Jews, among others, didn't get the memo), or that all Muslim immigrants want to impose Sharia law?

Making unwarranted generalizations about an entire group of people is the very essence of discrimination.

I know that polls can be made to look however whoever is taking them look however they want, but the polls show a large enough amount of muslims want it, to make it something to worry about. To not see the potential threat there, is to be blind.

I think it's much more likely that their children will assimilate to our culture once they experience it. How did the old song go? "How Ya Gonna Keep 'em Down on the Farm (After They've Seen Paree?)"

To lock them out because we're afraid of them is, once again, letting fear control us. You may think that's a fine way to live, but I don't. I refuse to let fear control my life.

ETA: Sorry, Dom -- I didn't see your post until after I posted mine. I will do my best to stick to Korea in further posts in this thread.
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09-08-2017, 01:46 PM
RE: Korea
So...what is the answer?
I am asking this sincerely and in a completely non-political way.

How do we stop a potential nuclear war with a mad man and an entire country that raises their children to detest America?

"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're probably on the menu."

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09-08-2017, 01:50 PM
RE: Korea
(09-08-2017 01:38 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 01:26 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  I know that polls can be made to look however whoever is taking them look however they want, but the polls show a large enough amount of muslims want it, to make it something to worry about. To not see the potential threat there, is to be blind.

I think it's much more likely that their children will assimilate to our culture once they experience it. How did the old song go? "How Ya Gonna Keep 'em Down on the Farm (After They've Seen Paree?)"

To lock them out because we're afraid of them is, once again, letting fear control us. You may think that's a fine way to live, but I don't. I refuse to let fear control my life.

ETA: Sorry, Dom -- I didn't see your post until after I posted mine. I will do my best to stick to Korea in further posts in this thread.

So, how about that Kim Jong Un, huh? What a guy! The quintessential definition of the "everyman" you'd love to have a beer with at the local pub, eh?
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09-08-2017, 01:52 PM
RE: Korea
(09-08-2017 01:46 PM)ShadowProject Wrote:  So...what is the answer?
I am asking this sincerely and in a completely non-political way.

How do we stop a potential nuclear war with a mad man and an entire country that raises their children to detest America?

I think properly applied, international economic warfare can be more effective than a nuclear strike at achieving our objectives. We are still the largest world economy (with China right there) and through our alliances can bring to bear (by withholding) a substantial portion of the worldwide GDP.

Not as quick as a nuke, notably, but with significantly less collateral damage.
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