Korea
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17-04-2017, 08:07 AM
RE: Korea
When the Berlin Wall came down in 1989, I was at Camp Casey, S. Korea. There was a lot of celebration among the Americans who had been stationed in Germany and had seen the Berlin wall and the border wall between East and West Germany. Our South Korean coworkers were both very interested and a bit scared. It started a big discussion about when/if this reconciliation could happen in Korea, and the economic impact of having to absorb the problems of North Korea.

It was certainly no easy task in Germany, and will be massively more difficult for Korea. Not only are they so different economically, but they have become separated culturally, too. There are now people who have been born and grown old in a place where they have no freedom at all, know nothing of the world outside, and have never had adequate food, housing, or health care. NK spends a whopping 24% of its GDP per year to support the military. (South Korea spends about 2.5%, and the USA spends about 4.3% of GDP per year.)
https://sputniknews.com/military/2016010...ry-burden/
That, of course, presumes that the two sides can be reconciled without a major war that would destroy the infrastructure and economy of SK. The military power of North Korea is seen as scary because it is damned scary. Their weapons may not be the best, but there are a hell of a lot of them, and it's not a big country. The missiles and long-range artillery on the border could wipe out Seoul in a matter of minutes, so the South Koreans are quite reasonably nervous about a n American President who might start a war with a 4AM Twitter rant.
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17-04-2017, 07:04 PM
RE: Korea
I'm inclined to think that too many people—particularly those living outside of SE Asia—overestimate the global political and military clout of North Korea, and underestimate the generally pacifist will of the rank and file population.

It's a pissant little country bordered to its north and south by unfriendly regimes (China and South Korea) and which is only half the size of my home state of Victoria, with a population only equal in size to that of Australia—24 million. It's also a very poor country: Per capita GDP=$1,800 versus Australian GDP=$67,458.

As far as long-range ICBMs go, the Taepodong-2 has not once been successfully test launched...

[Image: ea0uq4j.gif]

And of the six test launches of the Musudan missile, only one—the last—was considered at least a partial success.

North Korea is considered a joke where I live, as is its cartoon leader Little Fat Boy. Tongue

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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17-04-2017, 08:02 PM
RE: Korea
(17-04-2017 07:04 PM)SYZ Wrote:  I'm inclined to think that too many people—particularly those living outside of SE Asia—overestimate the global political and military clout of North Korea, and underestimate the generally pacifist will of the rank and file population.

It's a pissant little country bordered to its north and south by unfriendly regimes (China and South Korea) and which is only half the size of my home state of Victoria, with a population only equal in size to that of Australia—24 million. It's also a very poor country: Per capita GDP=$1,800 versus Australian GDP=$67,458.

As far as long-range ICBMs go, the Taepodong-2 has not once been successfully test launched...

[Image: ea0uq4j.gif]

And of the six test launches of the Musudan missile, only one—the last—was considered at least a partial success.

North Korea is considered a joke where I live, as is its cartoon leader Little Fat Boy. Tongue

Bolding mine. Nice! I REALLY like when I get a different perspective on the news. I feel a lot better about this, and think that maybe I'll wake up in the morning without a fission-reaction-fueled early sunrise. It's kind of my feeling, based on what most of my news is, that North Korea could be a real problem. Maybe he just needs a few thousand bushels of "tribute" wheat, again?
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17-04-2017, 08:48 PM
RE: Korea
(17-04-2017 08:02 PM)Fireball Wrote:  Nice! I REALLY like when I get a different perspective on the news. I feel a lot better about this, and think that maybe I'll wake up in the morning without a fission-reaction-fueled early sunrise. It's kind of my feeling, based on what most of my news is, that North Korea could be a real problem. Maybe he just needs a few thousand bushels of "tribute" wheat, again?

I guess I'd have to admit there certainly will be some troubles with whatever happens in North Korea, but I think it's likely to be very internalised. A major issue could be the fall of the Kim family dynasty, and then for some even worse militaristic nutcase than Fatboy to become leader.

I also think China wouldn't want another Vietnam on its doorstep, so a North Korean civil war would be stomped on pretty quickly by them—aided by the US—if Kim fell. China might try and shift its border to South Korea's, but apart from oil maybe, there's nothing the Chinese would gain by annexing North Korea.

North Korea's area of 124,000 sq km is around the same as that of Mississippi, so it gives you some perspective as to how small it is. Australia's largest state is 2,646,000 sq km, or four times that of Texas (which always pisses Texans off LOL).

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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17-04-2017, 08:57 PM
RE: Korea
Quote:China might try and shift its border to South Korea's

Huh... I never thought of that possibility before. That does seem like a very Chinese move. China right now is pretty expansionist, well as expansionist as you can be in todays modern climate. They might be able to get away with it too, I don't think many people think of North Korea "belonging" to South Korea. And nobody is gonna go to war with China over it.

As for nothing to gain from doing so I disagree. China is a very different country to the west. They play the long game and don't look for immediate return on investment.
It'll be worthwhile to them to just increase their borders and work force.

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17-04-2017, 09:13 PM
RE: Korea
(17-04-2017 08:48 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(17-04-2017 08:02 PM)Fireball Wrote:  Nice! I REALLY like when I get a different perspective on the news. I feel a lot better about this, and think that maybe I'll wake up in the morning without a fission-reaction-fueled early sunrise. It's kind of my feeling, based on what most of my news is, that North Korea could be a real problem. Maybe he just needs a few thousand bushels of "tribute" wheat, again?

I guess I'd have to admit there certainly will be some troubles with whatever happens in North Korea, but I think it's likely to be very internalised. A major issue could be the fall of the Kim family dynasty, and then for some even worse militaristic nutcase than Fatboy to become leader.

I also think China wouldn't want another Vietnam on its doorstep, so a North Korean civil war would be stomped on pretty quickly by them—aided by the US—if Kim fell. China might try and shift its border to South Korea's, but apart from oil maybe, there's nothing the Chinese would gain by annexing North Korea.

North Korea's area of 124,000 sq km is around the same as that of Mississippi, so it gives you some perspective as to how small it is. Australia's largest state is 2,646,000 sq km, or four times that of Texas (which always pisses Texans off LOL).

Nothing personal, but we really don't pay attention. *yawn*
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17-04-2017, 10:15 PM
RE: Korea
(17-04-2017 08:57 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:China might try and shift its border to South Korea's

Huh... I never thought of that possibility before. That does seem like a very Chinese move. China right now is pretty expansionist, well as expansionist as you can be in todays modern climate. They might be able to get away with it too, I don't think many people think of North Korea "belonging" to South Korea. And nobody is gonna go to war with China over it.

As for nothing to gain from doing so I disagree. China is a very different country to the west. They play the long game and don't look for immediate return on investment.
It'll be worthwhile to them to just increase their borders and work force.

Yes and no.

China has never been militaristically expansionist (unless you count Tibet). But the rich Chinese are economically expansionist. For that they invest in stable off-shore economies. War is only economically profitable in the short term and as you say, they play the long game.

And they, sure as hell isn't real, don't need more people.

They're better off with little fat boy playing in his own sandpit. who can be used as a whipping boy when needed than taking on the responsibility of an extra 25million people and having a new border that is pro-USA.

That's not to say that they would never be pushed into taking over or that they couldn't do it successfully but if they'd wanted to, they would have by now.

The biggest threat to global stability is not Russia or China or North Korea or Islam ... it's the USA's MIC, and has been for a long time.

Dodgy

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17-04-2017, 10:53 PM
RE: Korea
The Chinese idiom 唇齿相依 fairly accurately explains China's relationship with Korea. And, to an extent, Mongolia, Tibet, Nepal, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Vietnam.

Most western translations simply define it as "as close as lips and teeth", with the abbreviated meaning of "interdependence". The more in depth meaning, as explained to me when I lived in China, has to do with the teeth being central and more important and the lips existing to bear the brunt of the negative elements, keeping them protected. North Korea servers this prose by acting as a physical barrier between the US influenced South Korea and China's own borders. The more of an isolated, 3rd world shithole North Korea is, the better this purpose is served.

'Murican Canadian
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17-04-2017, 10:56 PM
RE: Korea
And China is not unwilling to use military force, they're just better at fighting proxy wars than we are. I think people would be amazed at the level of manipulation China has put to use in the securing of Africa's resources over the past few decades. And also how involved they've become in South American affairs lately in an attempt to do the same.

'Murican Canadian
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17-04-2017, 11:11 PM
RE: Korea
Quote:China has never been militaristically expansionist (unless you count Tibet). But the rich Chinese are economically expansionist.

Yea this is what I mean. Like what Yakherder said, they're very good at influencing countries (particularly African countries) for economic gain and gaining political influence at the same time. They're far better at it compared to the US. It's much more subtle compared to the Cold War where it was a war of communism v democracy.

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