LGBT (sub)section?
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03-06-2017, 09:20 PM (This post was last modified: 03-06-2017 10:51 PM by epronovost.)
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
(03-06-2017 07:36 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  And prod what out of me?

I want to know why and how you think that talking more about LGBTQ issues than French people issues for example is somehow placing LGBTQ person in a pedestal compared to a French person.

How is talking more about their issues than other groups' issues is detrimental to other groups in our specific context?

Considering the context, this forum being an atheist forum, your argument currently seems to rely on a fallacious appeal to equality and a red herring on the status of other group that might not be affected by religious powers, cultures and rules in the same fashion. Maybe your argument is relying on something else than obfuscation and flase equivalence. That's what I want to determine.

PS: here is a little link on what a fallacious appeal to equality is in the context of an argument. In resume, it's when someone's argument rest on a demand for equality for the sake of equality instead of demonstrating how equality is a more desirable and/or useful outcome (which is not always the case and sometime what equality means in such a context).

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tool...o-Equality

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03-06-2017, 11:49 PM
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
Quote:I want to know why and how you think that talking more about LGBTQ issues than French people issues for example is somehow placing LGBTQ person in a pedestal compared to a French person.

So be direct and ask me, don't beat around the bush or you'll just waste everyones time.

I got no issue with talking about LGBT issues. It's not the talking that's the issue, it's creating a separate space specifically for LGBT issues that's the issue.
Having black and white drinking fountains doesn't stop white people from drinking water if you get my drift.

Quote:Considering the context, this forum being an atheist forum

Atheism is a choice. Just as religion is. Nobody is born atheist, well.. I mean we're all born atheist, what I mean is that people can change their minds about religion or lack off throughout their life. Someone can't wake and suddenly decide they're straight or gay. That's the difference I don't understand why you can't comprehend.

Quote:PS: here is a little link on what a fallacious appeal to equality is in the context of an argument. In resume, it's when someone's argument rest on a demand for equality for the sake of equality instead of demonstrating how equality is a more desirable and/or useful outcome (which is not always the case and sometime what equality means in such a context).

This forum's ethos has always been equal equality. If you want to debate the purpose of equality that's fine, but in the context of creating a forum subforum all that matters is the 'theme' of the forum. And this forum has always been about treating people equally, freedom of speech blah blah blah. So considering the goal of the forum has always, and should remain always, about treating everyone equally my points stand and your point about moving the goal post on what is considered equal is moot.

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04-06-2017, 07:40 AM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2017 07:45 AM by cactus.)
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
(03-06-2017 11:49 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Atheism is a choice. Just as religion is. Nobody is born atheist, well.. I mean we're all born atheist, what I mean is that people can change their minds about religion or lack off throughout their life. Someone can't wake and suddenly decide they're straight or gay. That's the difference I don't understand why you can't comprehend.

You can wake up one day and suddenly realize you're no longer convinced by religious claims. Not a choice.

You can wake up one day and suddenly realize you're no longer attracted to the same types of people that you used to be. Not a choice.
Why must sexual attraction be "innate" from birth? It can be like any other preference and change over time as a people learn more about themselves or their priorities or life experiences change.

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04-06-2017, 08:10 AM
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
(04-06-2017 07:40 AM)cactus Wrote:  
(03-06-2017 11:49 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Atheism is a choice. Just as religion is. Nobody is born atheist, well.. I mean we're all born atheist, what I mean is that people can change their minds about religion or lack off throughout their life. Someone can't wake and suddenly decide they're straight or gay. That's the difference I don't understand why you can't comprehend.

You can wake up one day and suddenly realize you're no longer convinced by religious claims. Not a choice.

You can wake up one day and suddenly realize you're no longer attracted to the same types of people that you used to be. Not a choice.
Why must sexual attraction be "innate" from birth? It can be like any other preference and change over time as a people learn more about themselves or their priorities or life experiences change.

I see it as a curve. If you happen to be in the middle, it's an easy step to either side, and you may discover at any time that you enjoy both sides. If you happen to be at either end, chances that you will ever run into a significant experience from across the curve is slight to none. My spot on the curve is somewhat to the straight side, but close enough to the middle to let me cross over on occasion.

I don't think your spot on the curve ever changes, you are born into it. But, for some of us a cross over is possible.

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04-06-2017, 09:23 AM
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
[quote='earmuffs' pid='1194791' dateline='1496555377']
I got no issue with talking about LGBT issues. It's not the talking that's the issue, it's creating a separate space specifically for LGBT issues that's the issue.
Having black and white drinking fountains doesn't stop white people from drinking water if you get my drift.[/quote]

No, I don't get your drift. The Jim Crow's laws of racial segregation were oppressive and racist since they were based on hygenism and white supremacy. Black and white people were seperated because it was believed that black people were ''polluting" white people places. They were perceived as "unclean", almost like if they were contaminated with some disease. As such, they needed to be kept at a certain distance of white people and vice versa. Of course, since black people were considered as "lower race" their amenities, institutions and services were much worse and less numerous. Seperating drinking fountains wasn't wrong because they were seperated, sometime segregation can be done for convenience purpose or to fullfil a special need, it was wrong because the reasons behind that seperation were wrong. Removing the seperation didn't destroyed racism. It just made it more insiduous, less obviously omnipresent. Frustratingly, even today, one would have to be an imbecile to think that black people in american States were segregation was the law of the land are equal to white people.

Today, there are seperate drinking fountains for handicap people and "normal" people (you might have seen them in a mall, one is bit lower and wider), there is also seperate bathrooms for men and women (and sometime for handicap people too). Sometime, two group can be treated differently, not because one is superior to the others, but because one has needs or characteristics than others don't. In my opinion, LGBTQ issues aren't identical to let say French People issue in the context of atheism. LGBTQ people have been disproportionately affected and targetted by religious power and philosophy. recognising that doesn't make any group more or less important. It simply make their issues more or less relevent and important. I don't understand how you cannot seperate issues about people from the people themselves or how you cannot contextualise discussion.


[quote='earmuffs' pid='1194791' dateline='1496555377']
Atheism is a choice. Just as religion is. Nobody is born atheist, well.. I mean we're all born atheist, what I mean is that people can change their minds about religion or lack off throughout their life. Someone can't wake and suddenly decide they're straight or gay. That's the difference I don't understand why you can't comprehend.[quote]

Interest in LGBTQ issues is a choice. Just like being an atheist. It's an even easier choice. It's much harder to change a fundamental belief like a religious belief (or abscence of belief). I don't understand why think that this argument would be compelling. Yes, atheism is a choice and being gay is not. But interest in gay and atheist right is a choice.

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04-06-2017, 06:20 PM
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
(04-06-2017 07:40 AM)cactus Wrote:  
(03-06-2017 11:49 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Atheism is a choice. Just as religion is. Nobody is born atheist, well.. I mean we're all born atheist, what I mean is that people can change their minds about religion or lack off throughout their life. Someone can't wake and suddenly decide they're straight or gay. That's the difference I don't understand why you can't comprehend.

You can wake up one day and suddenly realize you're no longer convinced by religious claims. Not a choice.

You can wake up one day and suddenly realize you're no longer attracted to the same types of people that you used to be. Not a choice.
Why must sexual attraction be "innate" from birth? It can be like any other preference and change over time as a people learn more about themselves or their priorities or life experiences change.

No that's not how it works.
You don't wake up one day and decide you're gay.

And atheism is as much a choice as anything. You might hate sports your whole life and watch one game of something and suddenly find a passion for it.
Sexuality is not like that, you don't suddenly see a dick after 40 years of a solid poontang chasing and decide to change teams.

Quote:No, I don't get your drift.

Obviously.

Quote:it was wrong because the reasons behind that separation were wrong.

Just as they are here too.

Quote:(you might have seen them in a mall, one is bit lower and wider)

We don't have that here.

Quote:there is also seperate bathrooms for men and women (and sometime for handicap people too).

Except that's equal because both genders have their own bathroom. There's not a uni-sex bathroom and a women's bathroom. There's a men's bathroom and a woman's bathroom. Equal.
Regarding handicap bathrooms, that's because they have different needs. Handrails, special toilet seats (ones designed for people getting in and out of wheelchairs), more space etc.. Here they're included in the bathrooms. There's usually a regular toilet and a larger handicap toilet stall.

LGBT don't have different special 'needs' that warrant their own subforum.
Any issues they have can go in the regular subforums.

Quote:Interest in LGBTQ issues is a choice.

But being LGBT isn't...

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04-06-2017, 06:34 PM
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
I woke up this morning, looked in the mirror and decided I was gay, but I changed back when I saw other dudes. This whole "You're born gay and can't change" has officially been proven to be a croc of shit. You're welcome. Now, what the fuck does that have to do with making a special sub-forum for a protected class of minorities? Why can't a queer or lesbian or gay or whatever orientation get support in many of the existing channels open to everyone? Is there some "Ho Homo" rule that I don't know about? What am I missing?

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04-06-2017, 06:42 PM
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
I'm wondering the exact same thing DL, but here we are. Thank god I'm around to defend the integrity of the forum.
Imagine if I wasn't around to balance out these libtard snowflakes. (not you epro, you're alright. Just wrong.).

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04-06-2017, 07:40 PM
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
For the sake of not sounding too offensive...

Throughout the years we've fought for a non-prejudiced attitude for the LGBT in civilized society. The point of it was to make equality among the LGBT and the everyone else.
I think Muffs is right here. Making an "LGBT" sub-forum just seems odd. There isn't a "straight" sub-forum. I get that there are some things that are exclusively for specific sections of the LGBT that heterosexual and people who adhere to their birth gender cannot answer or relate to but I feel like having to segregate the LGBT from the rest is too much.

It'd be just the same as saying that since a black person can't relate to everything that an Asian person might that we should have a subsection just for Asian people to talk about their own trials... It sounds silly doesn't it? We're all human beings no need to divide and classify.

* I'd like to point out that I am aware that we have established that straight people can post in the LGBT sub-section but that is not the point.
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04-06-2017, 07:50 PM
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
(04-06-2017 07:40 PM)Larai19 Wrote:  For the sake of not sounding too offensive...

Throughout the years we've fought for a non-prejudiced attitude for the LGBT in civilized society. The point of it was to make equality among the LGBT and the everyone else.
I think Muffs is right here. Making an "LGBT" sub-forum just seems odd. There isn't a "straight" sub-forum. I get that there are some things that are exclusively for specific sections of the LGBT that heterosexual and people who adhere to their birth gender cannot answer or relate to but I feel like having to segregate the LGBT from the rest is too much.

It'd be just the same as saying that since a black person can't relate to everything that an Asian person might that we should have a subsection just for Asian people to talk about their own trials... It sounds silly doesn't it? We're all human beings no need to divide and classify.

* I'd like to point out that I am aware that we have established that straight people can post in the LGBT sub-section but that is not the point.

All these things are perfectly fine and any of us can do them at any time by simply starting a dedicated thread. If it's popular, it can get pinned. It's really a non issue imo.

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