LGBT (sub)section?
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16-06-2017, 10:07 AM
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
(16-06-2017 09:46 AM)Emma Wrote:  Ato and Jenny, it still astounds me that you're just "okay" with it. Whether to make a point or not, it's I who should overcome my faults in... idk, taking him too seriously? Finding his verbiage to be harmful? All because he's never going to change and he's funny sometimes.

Again, I say nope. He doesn't have to change his behavior, but I'm not going to ignore it either. Words matter. Agree with it or not, they do affect people deeply and I'm not going to silently abide with it. If I think he's saying something harmful- regardless of his intentions- I'll decide if I'll say something.

Also I don't think you have any faults in taking him too seriously. Words hurt. You have every right to be hurt if something someone said had an impact on you. I was just saying that I don't think EM meant it with a bigoted angle. I think he meant it as a way to be provocative. Regardless of what his intent was, words can still hurt.

And I don't mean to lessen the way you feel in any way, by saying I don't think he meant the t-word in a bigoted fashion. Initially, when he used the term I think it was more used to provoke and a not a This is how I truly feel type of attitude--that's all I was trying to say--and not that you shouldn't be hurt or feel the sting of the word.

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16-06-2017, 10:17 AM (This post was last modified: 16-06-2017 10:20 AM by Atothetheist.)
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
Also, upon reading the second thread, and seeing earmuffs posts, I got to say, he was being pretty malicious, which is totally not okay. So Emma, Muffs should have treated you better. I was wrong on that front because I didn't know it got split! My bad. However, GenesisNemesis was provoking him, in that thread.

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16-06-2017, 10:30 AM
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
(16-06-2017 10:02 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Well, I have anecdotal evidence. I have spoken to him many times and I never got the impression that he actually was homophobic, or transphobic or racist, but rather that he is a personality. Have you listened to his interview in the Forum Lounge? If memory serves he wasn't too bad in that. I think he is a offensive comedian in a way. If you feel the need to say something against his opinions, I'll listen because I might honestly be wrong. I never said to sit down and be quiet when you think offenses are being genuinely committed against you, but I think that we differ on what is and should be considered offensive.

I haven't heard his interview. And of course we're going to differ on what should be considered offensive. We have very different backgrounds and words that are very loaded for me are simply distasteful to you.

His "comedy" has a sting of his actual views in them when I read them. He calls me an idiot because he thinks I'm an idiot. He calls me aids because he thinks that I'm a toxic person who is spreading my toxic views to others (I'm not, by the way, there are a lot of people on these forums that are fed up with him, too). And his insults are both a means to get a reaction from me or to silence me. I'm not offended by his behavior anymore because I can see what his intent is. But I still think it's important to challenge his words.

He and I both know he has no intention of stopping. But neither do I.

(16-06-2017 10:02 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  We are having a civil disciussion, I like that. I'm glad we are able to disagree in a way that doesn't resort to insults. I feel your passion and I'm glad you have it, I just have a different perspective on things (a perspective that's ALWAYS open to change and improvement). Even if I disagree with this discussion, I want you to know that I not disagree with you as a person. I think I'm going to bow out of the discussion and let you all take a breather from the argument.

Okay, that's fair. As I said in my last post, I like you and I respect you even though we disagree. And I think this type of discussion is productive. Hopefully we all understand each other a little better.

(16-06-2017 10:02 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Also, to your point that I'm "okay" with it. I think that you fail to understand what I mean. If one genuinely uses the word nigger in a derogatory way as a means of insulting a black man and wishing to hurt him or her, that's wrong. That's NOT okay at all. I will be right there with people to admonish this man. However if one uses the word in an offensive joke then that's different, I see a distinction. I don't think it makes me a bad person, just one that thinks words can have different connotations and different meanings based on the intention and the scenario it's being used in. I certainly don't think an actor playing a role saying the word is a racist because I understand the situation behind it.

-Steven.

I see the distinction, too. But I think that even comedians can get it wrong. Comedy shouldn't be held to the same standard that we hold in standard discourse. However, trans people have been the butt of jokes in movies and TV for decades. And if the point is simply to be crass, then well- mission accomplished but what was the point? But if the point is supposed to be either a commentary on how society treats trans people or how trans people sometimes behave- then I'd be more accepting of the attempt. There's a way to make jokes about trans people that doesn't feed further into transphobia.

But, that aside- I've reached the point where I'm fine with him using Tranny. I don't like it, but I won't flip my shit again. But it's also because I know his intent is to hurt me or make me upset.
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16-06-2017, 10:34 AM
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
(16-06-2017 10:30 AM)Emma Wrote:  
(16-06-2017 10:02 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Well, I have anecdotal evidence. I have spoken to him many times and I never got the impression that he actually was homophobic, or transphobic or racist, but rather that he is a personality. Have you listened to his interview in the Forum Lounge? If memory serves he wasn't too bad in that. I think he is a offensive comedian in a way. If you feel the need to say something against his opinions, I'll listen because I might honestly be wrong. I never said to sit down and be quiet when you think offenses are being genuinely committed against you, but I think that we differ on what is and should be considered offensive.

I haven't heard his interview. And of course we're going to differ on what should be considered offensive. We have very different backgrounds and words that are very loaded for me are simply distasteful to you.

His "comedy" has a sting of his actual views in them when I read them. He calls me an idiot because he thinks I'm an idiot. He calls me aids because he thinks that I'm a toxic person who is spreading my toxic views to others (I'm not, by the way, there are a lot of people on these forums that are fed up with him, too). And his insults are both a means to get a reaction from me or to silence me. I'm not offended by his behavior anymore because I can see what his intent is. But I still think it's important to challenge his words.

He and I both know he has no intention of stopping. But neither do I.

(16-06-2017 10:02 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  We are having a civil disciussion, I like that. I'm glad we are able to disagree in a way that doesn't resort to insults. I feel your passion and I'm glad you have it, I just have a different perspective on things (a perspective that's ALWAYS open to change and improvement). Even if I disagree with this discussion, I want you to know that I not disagree with you as a person. I think I'm going to bow out of the discussion and let you all take a breather from the argument.

Okay, that's fair. As I said in my last post, I like you and I respect you even though we disagree. And I think this type of discussion is productive. Hopefully we all understand each other a little better.

(16-06-2017 10:02 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Also, to your point that I'm "okay" with it. I think that you fail to understand what I mean. If one genuinely uses the word nigger in a derogatory way as a means of insulting a black man and wishing to hurt him or her, that's wrong. That's NOT okay at all. I will be right there with people to admonish this man. However if one uses the word in an offensive joke then that's different, I see a distinction. I don't think it makes me a bad person, just one that thinks words can have different connotations and different meanings based on the intention and the scenario it's being used in. I certainly don't think an actor playing a role saying the word is a racist because I understand the situation behind it.

-Steven.

I see the distinction, too. But I think that even comedians can get it wrong. Comedy shouldn't be held to the same standard that we hold in standard discourse. However, trans people have been the butt of jokes in movies and TV for decades. And if the point is simply to be crass, then well- mission accomplished but what was the point? But if the point is supposed to be either a commentary on how society treats trans people or how trans people sometimes behave- then I'd be more accepting of the attempt. There's a way to make jokes about trans people that doesn't feed further into transphobia.

But, that aside- I've reached the point where I'm fine with him using Tranny. I don't like it, but I won't flip my shit again. But it's also because I know his intent is to hurt me or make me upset.


Thats fair, I'm glad that you and I can come to understand one another.

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16-06-2017, 09:43 PM
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
Look, Emma, this is me going to be civil towards you because I feel we've made a little bit of headway towards that and I've just read this interaction between yourself, Jenny and Ato and I'm in a civil mood. Firstly though, @Ato, there's more to this interaction than just this thread and the split off one in the Viper Pit. When they're talking about me calling Emma a tranny they're referring to a thread I made about some topic when I used the word tranny in the OP, it wasn't directed at Emma but she took offense and made a rather 'malicious' post attacking me. That's what started everything.


I think any long time member that knows me knows that I am not a bigot, misogynist, homophobe. I mean, that's ridiculous. I think Ato and Jenny's interpretation of me is a close representation of me (except the troll part.. Dodgy ). I use colorful language or say things in certain ways because that's who I am. I like to write 'colorfully', it keeps it fresh and is more interesting to read or I can use it to get my point across in a more thought-provoking way. Much like a comedian does I guess, though I don't claim to be funny.

I've been on this forum a lot longer than you. I realize you signed up before me, but I mean I've been posting consistently for 5 years. I know this forum and we've always valued freedom of speech. We've never been protectionist. We're not like other forums who ban people all the time. We have very few rules, the only rules we have are to get rid of the obvious trouble makers, spammers, bots etc..
We value everyone equally no matter your religion, sex, age, ethnicity etc..
Go onto a Christian forum and tell them you're a transsexual atheist and see how long you last. As our glorious founder, Stark, always said, "this place isn't for everyone".

But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should leave. It's good to have different people with different life experiences and opinions etc.. it's what keeps the discussions good. But you need to recognize that there are different people with different life experiences and opinions etc.. And I understand that you might see that statement as hypocritical coming from me but I disagree because as I've said, and others that know me better I'm sure can back me up here, I'm not a bigot, mysticist, homophobe as you try to make me out to be.

I don't do it maliciously, I'm not out to offend people, it's just how I write, who I am and how I choose to get my point across. If you don't like that that's fine but I'm not going to change who I am to suit you or apologize for whom I am. And considering the forum we are on I feel that my right to write the way I do trumps you being offended by it. This comes back to "this place isn't for everyone".

Now obviously there's a line where it goes from social commentary to 'maliciousness'. But YOU crossed that line first. You can ignore it all you like but you did go there first. And if someone is going to be 'malicious' towards me than I see that as open season to be 'malicious' back towards them for the same reasons you claim you're doing it to me, that I'm you're gonna just sit down and take it. KUSA, Rocket, Genesis, SYZ and now Vera are all guilty of this. I hadn't said anything to them but they all chose to jump in and 'maliciously' attack me.
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16-06-2017, 09:52 PM
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
(16-06-2017 09:43 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I hadn't said anything to them but they all chose to jump in and 'maliciously' attack me.

That's because you claim to have a thick skin. If you have a thick skin, you can take being attacked. Why should anyone care if you're attacked? You can take it, right? I don't understand why you're complaining about being attacked.

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16-06-2017, 09:57 PM
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
(16-06-2017 09:52 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  
(16-06-2017 09:43 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I hadn't said anything to them but they all chose to jump in and 'maliciously' attack me.

That's because you claim to have a thick skin. If you have a thick skin, you can take being attacked. Why should anyone care if you're attacked? You can take it, right? I don't understand why you're complaining about being attacked.

I think he's complaining about the hypocrisy more then the actual "attacking".
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16-06-2017, 09:57 PM
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
(16-06-2017 09:57 PM)Larai19 Wrote:  
(16-06-2017 09:52 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  That's because you claim to have a thick skin. If you have a thick skin, you can take being attacked. Why should anyone care if you're attacked? You can take it, right? I don't understand why you're complaining about being attacked.

I think he's complaining about the hypocrisy more then the actual "attacking".

The entire point I was making in attacking was pointing out his hypocrisy.

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16-06-2017, 10:04 PM
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
(16-06-2017 09:57 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  
(16-06-2017 09:57 PM)Larai19 Wrote:  I think he's complaining about the hypocrisy more then the actual "attacking".

The entire point I was making in attacking was pointing out his hypocrisy.

I don't think he cares that much about the "attacks".
In this case I think he's just headstrong about his values and keen on defending them.
I doubt he's actually upset by any of this.

But, that's just how I'd feel. Maybe I'm wrong...
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16-06-2017, 10:05 PM
RE: LGBT (sub)section?
(16-06-2017 10:04 PM)Larai19 Wrote:  
(16-06-2017 09:57 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  The entire point I was making in attacking was pointing out his hypocrisy.

I don't think he cares that much about the "attacks".
In this case I think he's just headstrong about his values and keen on defending them.
I doubt he's actually upset by any of this.

But, that's just how I'd feel. Maybe I'm wrong...

Is logical consistency one of his values?

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