Landlordism Causes Homelessness
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23-03-2017, 11:53 PM
RE: Landlordism Causes Homelessness
(23-03-2017 11:37 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
Quote:How do you propose individuals trade with one another without a value mechanism?

I'm not even sure I want trade.

I definitely don't want to continue with a system where paper has ludicrous power because powerful people printed numbers on it. I hope everyone loses faith in money currency and it becomes meaningless.

Hunter gathers didn't use money. In fact, we as a species that has evolved from our biological ancestors have only used money for a microscopic blip in time. No other living species on earth uses money. That's not the only thing that makes us unique but I do believe there's a causal link between our monetary system and capacity and willingness to accept destruction. Would I prefer to return to the hunter gatherer way of life? Yes. I think it would be much better than the ecological hell we've created.

You may happily return to hunter-gatherer life after the apocalypse. Until then, farming is all we have to sustain the huge population that we currently have.

Money is not an evil thing. It's simply a good idea. If we have no money, and I raise pigs, then in order to get anything I want, I have to trade pigs for it. It means the person I want to deal with - say the doctor - must want pigs or pork products. What if the doctor is Muslim? Now I must go find someone else to trade with, to get something that the doctor wants, so that he will help me. Can you see the advantage of money? I can see why it looks arbitrary, but without it trade would be a lot harder.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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23-03-2017, 11:56 PM
RE: Landlordism Causes Homelessness
Quote:If I, Mr Strong Man, decide to fuck everyone over, what recourse do you have?

I can kill you.

Or maybe you'll kill me. Or maybe we'll work it out.

I think I'd have more recourse against you than I do against a government backed by a gigantic military and a populace brainwashed into accepting its right to use violence against me.

Let me also point out that I don't claim to have any utopian vision. And I'm not an anarchist that hates the police. Hypocritical or not I WILL use the police and I am grateful for their willingness to come and protect me. I respect what they do. Most anarchists consider that a deal breaker. So I'm out of the club. So be it. I'm mostly coming from a place of transcendentalism. Even if the odds are only a million to one I still want to have some hope that humanity will transcend from where we are now to freedom. In my case, from democracy and capitalism to freedom. It will take a shift in consciousness on a wide scale. People will have to behave. Impossible? Probably. But it's not as ridiculous as thinking we can continue on the way we are.
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24-03-2017, 12:05 AM
RE: Landlordism Causes Homelessness
(23-03-2017 11:56 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
Quote:If I, Mr Strong Man, decide to fuck everyone over, what recourse do you have?

I can kill you.

Or maybe you'll kill me. Or maybe we'll work it out.

Ah, private justice. Not my cup of tea really. I think, I Mr Strongman, being a rather nice chap and not inclined to killing people arbitrarily, will appoint myself king and set up a fair justice system for everyone.

Quote:I think I'd have more recourse against you than I do against a government backed by a gigantic military and a populace brainwashed into accepting its right to use violence against me.
Luminon? Is that you? I mean for fuck's sake. When were you last assaulted on your way to the shops? Legally assaulted? Here you are running your mouth and look at all the violence being deployed against you. Ermagerd!!!!

That said, America does have a problem with minority rights not being respected. I believe the solution is not to do away with the laws, but to do away with the unfairness?

Quote:Let me also point out that I don't claim to have any utopian vision. And I'm not an anarchist that hates the police. Hypocritical or not I WILL use the police and I am grateful for their willingness to come and protect me. I respect what they do. Most anarchists consider that a deal breaker. So I'm out of the club. So be it. I'm mostly coming from a place of transcendentalism. Even if the odds are only a million to one I still want to have some hope that humanity will transcend from where we are now to freedom. In my case, from democracy and capitalism to freedom. It will take a shift in consciousness on a wide scale. People will have to behave. Impossible? Probably. But it's not as ridiculous as thinking we can continue on the way we are.
I think society will progress. But I don't understand why you're against rule of law and money and so forth being used in pursuit of that progress.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-03-2017, 12:14 AM
RE: Landlordism Causes Homelessness
(23-03-2017 11:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(23-03-2017 11:37 PM)ImFred Wrote:  I'm not even sure I want trade.

I definitely don't want to continue with a system where paper has ludicrous power because powerful people printed numbers on it. I hope everyone loses faith in money currency and it becomes meaningless.

Hunter gathers didn't use money. In fact, we as a species that has evolved from our biological ancestors have only used money for a microscopic blip in time. No other living species on earth uses money. That's not the only thing that makes us unique but I do believe there's a causal link between our monetary system and capacity and willingness to accept destruction. Would I prefer to return to the hunter gatherer way of life? Yes. I think it would be much better than the ecological hell we've created.

You may happily return to hunter-gatherer life after the apocalypse. Until then, farming is all we have to sustain the huge population that we currently have.

Money is not an evil thing. It's simply a good idea. If we have no money, and I raise pigs, then in order to get anything I want, I have to trade pigs for it. It means the person I want to deal with - say the doctor - must want pigs or pork products. What if the doctor is Muslim? Now I must go find someone else to trade with, to get something that the doctor wants, so that he will help me. Can you see the advantage of money? I can see why it looks arbitrary, but without it trade would be a lot harder.

You probably won't be surprised to hear me say I've considered all that but still think it's not worth it.

I also think most people have no idea how destructive agriculture is. As a system it's pretty much designed to destroy everything except the desired lifeform.

As for the huge population, its unsustainable. No technology, no advances in agriculture can save us. Malthus has become out of vogue but the cold hard truth is we're depleting the world's resources far faster than they're being replenished and that means certain calamity and die off.

I also feel sympathetic to the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement. A part of me wants humanity to survive and maybe explore the heavens but another part of me thinks this planet would be much better off without us, myself certainly included.
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24-03-2017, 12:30 AM
RE: Landlordism Causes Homelessness
Quote:I think society will progress. But I don't understand why you're against rule of law and money and so forth being used in pursuit of that progress.

Because it's led us to the brink of an existential crisis. For example, thousands of hydrogen bombs.

And at a gut level I don't want to be governed. I don't want to lead or be led. Part of it isn't so much my beliefs as my proclivities.

I know you and most others will think I'm a crank and have many what ifs that I can't answer or have answers you won't accept.

The main thing I want to get across is that the way things are aren't necessarily the way things have to be. Maybe something none of us have thought of will take root.

I also concede that the implementation of my ideas might be a complete disaster.
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24-03-2017, 02:32 AM
RE: Landlordism Causes Homelessness
(24-03-2017 12:30 AM)ImFred Wrote:  
Quote:I think society will progress. But I don't understand why you're against rule of law and money and so forth being used in pursuit of that progress.

Because it's led us to the brink of an existential crisis. For example, thousands of hydrogen bombs.

And at a gut level I don't want to be governed. I don't want to lead or be led. Part of it isn't so much my beliefs as my proclivities.

I know you and most others will think I'm a crank and have many what ifs that I can't answer or have answers you won't accept.

The main thing I want to get across is that the way things are aren't necessarily the way things have to be. Maybe something none of us have thought of will take root.

I also concede that the implementation of my ideas might be a complete disaster.

I see myself as a person who would work within the system that we've got. You're more of a start-afresh kinda guy. I see my approach as far less risky, but I hear what you say.

I agree that we've got major problems. I agree that we can't sustain population as we are at the moment. I think 20-50 years from now the world as we know it may completely cease to exist. But... I don't think waiting for the crash is what I want to do. I'll rather try to not have a crash in the first place.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-03-2017, 02:53 AM
RE: Landlordism Causes Homelessness
(23-03-2017 05:50 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Hopefully you read my previous post where I say tax brackets should be raised to historical levels of 70% so I’m not a proponent of capitalism run amok.

The problem with that is with modern tech, you can run a business from pretty much anywhere in the world. Without worldwide harmonisation of tax rates, raise the taxes too high, the person can simply move. There's a reason there are so many billionaires in Monaco, and it's not the climate and scenery.

While I do think there is some wiggle room, I'd doubt rates above 50% would honestly work.

There was some hoo-ha in the UK a couple of years ago when the top rate of income tax was raised, and dropped again (I think it went up about 5%). It was dropped because it didn't actually bring in extra revenues as the extra paid by the many was offset by the total loss from the few who simply moved to a lower tax jurisdiction.
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24-03-2017, 06:03 AM
RE: Landlordism Causes Homelessness
Quote:I see myself as a person who would work within the system that we've got. You're more of a start-afresh kinda guy. I see my approach as far less risky, but I hear what you say.

People are complicated. The world is complicated. It's ok to be open to working inside the system while envisaging something more grand. I'd be more prone to worry about the riskiness of my ideas if we weren't already in the midst of an ecological disaster.

And the election of Agent Orange was a final final straw for me. On the other hand, I'm actually encouraged by how he's being stalled. I honestly thought we would already be fucked by now but my life is so far is basically unchanged. If our system (I don't know you're American so if you can excuse my plural pronouns) of checks and balances sees us through this administration I'll have more reason to believe in this system. We'll see.
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24-03-2017, 07:27 AM (This post was last modified: 24-03-2017 07:46 AM by Full Circle.)
RE: Landlordism Causes Homelessness
(24-03-2017 02:53 AM)ukatheist Wrote:  
(23-03-2017 05:50 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Hopefully you read my previous post where I say tax brackets should be raised to historical levels of 70% so I’m not a proponent of capitalism run amok.

The problem with that is with modern tech, you can run a business from pretty much anywhere in the world. Without worldwide harmonisation of tax rates, raise the taxes too high, the person can simply move. There's a reason there are so many billionaires in Monaco, and it's not the climate and scenery.

While I do think there is some wiggle room, I'd doubt rates above 50% would honestly work.

There was some hoo-ha in the UK a couple of years ago when the top rate of income tax was raised, and dropped again (I think it went up about 5%). It was dropped because it didn't actually bring in extra revenues as the extra paid by the many was offset by the total loss from the few who simply moved to a lower tax jurisdiction.

What I thought was implied was that the tax system including brackets, laws and therefore loopholes, would be addressed as well.

There is much more to fair implementation of taxes than simply income brackets. For instance there is the issue of how income is classified (wage vs. capital gain) and taxed, deductions are also a head-scratcher thus the Alternative Minimum Tax (something Trump is dying to get rid of) and then there is the issue of subsidies, all these are just a few of the details I think need to be addressed as well as brackets.

Rates well over 50% have worked in the past, the people with wealth in power don’t like it so they lobby (bribe) elected officials to vote against it. Maybe the bribe isn’t in the form of money but a quid pro quo is certainly arrived at, normally in the form of financial support for their PAC and re-election.

And yes I agree that corporations establish overseas arms to avoid home taxation. There are already a myriad of laws that attempt to address this to different degrees of success. My wife worked for a Fortune 500 multi-national for 22 years, I saw first hand how their accounting was a warren of maneuvers to minimize taxes. I don't kow what the answer is but it certainly needs to be reworked.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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24-03-2017, 07:41 AM (This post was last modified: 24-03-2017 07:47 AM by Full Circle.)
RE: Landlordism Causes Homelessness
(23-03-2017 11:37 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
Quote:How do you propose individuals trade with one another without a value mechanism?

I'm not even sure I want trade.

I definitely don't want to continue with a system where paper has ludicrous power because powerful people printed numbers on it. I hope everyone loses faith in money currency and it becomes meaningless.

Hunter gathers didn't use money. In fact, we as a species that has evolved from our biological ancestors have only used money for a microscopic blip in time. No other living species on earth uses money. That's not the only thing that makes us unique but I do believe there's a causal link between our monetary system and capacity and willingness to accept destruction. Would I prefer to return to the hunter gatherer way of life? Yes. I think it would be much better than the ecological hell we've created.

Money, as a store of value, has made one of the greatest impacts in human production and social civilization of any of our inventions. Granted it can be used for illicit, illegal, dangerous and destructive ways but then what can’t be?

When we were hunter gatherers we walked a thin line between life and extinction. With the advent of farming, the subdivision of labor and the ability to store wealth humans could then specialize.

Anyway, I’m sure you know all of this, I certainly wouldn’t want to have to plow a field, plant wheat, wait for it to grow, harvest it, grind it to make my morning croissant while simultaneously running down a wild boar so I could have some bacon, while tending a fire too so I could bake and cook it and all the while defending my food from a roving band of other humans. Know what I mean? Big Grin

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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