Law enforcement drones over US??????
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28-05-2012, 02:11 PM (This post was last modified: 28-05-2012 02:40 PM by Scarlet Pimpernel.)
RE: Law enforcement drones over US??????
(28-05-2012 01:38 PM)arcticspear Wrote:  If the average citizen isn't doing anything wrong, then what's the worry?

The average citizen in 1930's Germany wasn't doing anything wrong either. Then someone decided he didn't like average citizens with big noses. So he destroyed 6 million of them.

What if some asshole fundie Xtian US president – with the majority of Congress supporting him/her; a very plausible scenario – suddenly decides atheism is a crime and atheists are criminals who should be prosecuted?
The drones would come in handy: the acronyms could trace you via this board, have a drone identify you with face recognition, and zap you on the spot from the sky.

No doubt they'll call it divine retribution or something... just like Hitler had some bullshit about the Aryan super race, bla-bla-bla.

It happened before and it will happen again.
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28-05-2012, 02:39 PM
RE: Law enforcement drones over US??????
(28-05-2012 01:17 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Wow, people get really paranoid about these things.

Does anyone have a legitimate argument against these things? I don't count "what if they're used to rape my cat" criticisms as legitimate as they can be used against absolutely anything and when talking about topics like this I assume we are talking based on the item being used within safeguards that prevent them being used to harm people. I also don't count people talking about the "principle" because to not use something that could prevent crime based on something as non-rational as principles is just painfully stupid.
Hey Hughsie,

It's not paranoia for me, it is a matter of constitutional restrictions on government. I do not take part in anything illegal so in this would not effect me but our constitution sets parameters for search and seizure. Judicial approval for warrants is necessary legally and in my estimation this is a proper restriction on police power.

Search warrants have to have a proper scope both in regards to what evidence is being sought and where the evidence is supposed to be. The police cannot get a search warrant for your property and then search the property of everyone you know. If the proper legal safeguards are in place an a drone is the only way to get the evidence then I can go along with that but I do not want drones being used for intelligence gathering by some police department unchecked.

Would this fly in the UK (no pun intended) Smile

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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28-05-2012, 02:49 PM (This post was last modified: 28-05-2012 02:59 PM by Scarlet Pimpernel.)
RE: Law enforcement drones over US??????
Quote:Would this fly in the UK (no pun intended) Smile


It already does, mate. Watch the skies over e.g. metropolitan London, specifically the Olympic sites, and you'll see a dozen a day. Everyday.
Don't forget the UK also already has over 10 million CCTV cameras observing, recording and storing imagery of the public space as we speak. (And who knows of what else).
Then compare to Orwell's 'Airstrip One'.
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28-05-2012, 02:58 PM
RE: Law enforcement drones over US??????
(28-05-2012 02:49 PM)Scarlet Pimpernel Wrote:  
Quote:Would this fly in the UK (no pun intended) Smile


It already does, mate. Watch the skies over e.g. metropolitan London, specifically the Olympic sites, and you'll see a dozen a day. Everyday.
Don't forget the UK also already have over 10 million CCTV cameras observing, recording and storing imagery of the public space as we speak. (And who knows of what else).
Then compare to Orwell's 'Airstrip One'.
I knew there were a lot of cameras in London but not about the drones. Are the just for use during the Olympics? That is a security nightmare and a half.

I find Orwell to be a good reference point whenever people start clamoring for safety and security.

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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28-05-2012, 03:17 PM (This post was last modified: 28-05-2012 07:26 PM by Scarlet Pimpernel.)
RE: Law enforcement drones over US??????
(28-05-2012 02:58 PM)KidCharlemagne1962 Wrote:  I knew there were a lot of cameras in London but not about the drones. Are the just for use during the Olympics?
No, they've been testing and developing them for years. The Olympics are just the first big deployment for them in the UK. If they do the job they'll stay. Metropolitan areas all over the globe are testing them.
The latest evolution is not moving drones but hovering quadcopters, or even hexacopters.

You can buy them as toys for US$ 299 and operate them with your smartphone or tablet. Imagine that toy beefed up and enlarged to military grade, 8 feet across, and hovering at 10 to 15,000 feet – i.o.w. invisible – and you've got a picture.









The next step is weaponizing them.
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28-05-2012, 05:57 PM
RE: Law enforcement drones over US??????
(28-05-2012 02:11 PM)Scarlet Pimpernel Wrote:  The average citizen in 1930's Germany wasn't doing anything wrong either. Then someone decided he didn't like average citizens with big noses. So he destroyed 6 million of them.

What if some asshole fundie Xtian US president – with the majority of Congress supporting him/her; a very plausible scenario – suddenly decides atheism is a crime and atheists are criminals who should be prosecuted?
The drones would come in handy: the acronyms could trace you via this board, have a drone identify you with face recognition, and zap you on the spot from the sky.

No doubt they'll call it divine retribution or something... just like Hitler had some bullshit about the Aryan super race, bla-bla-bla.

It happened before and it will happen again.

And you don't think there's a twinsy winsy chance that someone who was prepared to violate the law by killing millions of innocent people would also be prepared to violate a law prohibiting the use of drones?

I'll grant you that if there's ever a mad dictator carrying out a genocide but is only prepared to use already established weaponry to do so you'll have the last laugh but that's about it.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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28-05-2012, 07:52 PM
RE: Law enforcement drones over US??????
(28-05-2012 05:57 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(28-05-2012 02:11 PM)Scarlet Pimpernel Wrote:  The average citizen in 1930's Germany wasn't doing anything wrong either. Then someone decided he didn't like average citizens with big noses. So he destroyed 6 million of them.

What if some asshole fundie Xtian US president – with the majority of Congress supporting him/her; a very plausible scenario – suddenly decides atheism is a crime and atheists are criminals who should be prosecuted?
The drones would come in handy: the acronyms could trace you via this board, have a drone identify you with face recognition, and zap you on the spot from the sky.

No doubt they'll call it divine retribution or something... just like Hitler had some bullshit about the Aryan super race, bla-bla-bla.

It happened before and it will happen again.


And you don't think there's a twinsy winsy chance that someone who was prepared to violate the law by killing millions of innocent people would also be prepared to violate a law prohibiting the use of drones?

By that logic we ought to abolish the law, law enforcement, and the entire legal system because lawbreakers are going to break them anyway...

And that doesn't strike you as somewhat odd? Big Grin

Naaah, thanks, I think I'll choose for the actual and proper application of the the law, law enforcement, and the entire legal system that we have. Too much capital invested to just throw away. I opt to make it work as it was intended to: for the people instead of for the elites. That will have radical enough consequences as it is.
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28-05-2012, 08:01 PM
RE: Law enforcement drones over US??????
(28-05-2012 07:52 PM)Scarlet Pimpernel Wrote:  By that logic we ought to abolish the law, law enforcement, and the entire legal system because lawbreakers are going to break them anyway...

And that doesn't strike you as somewhat odd? Big Grin

Naaah, thanks, I think I'll choose for the actual and proper application of the the law, law enforcement, and the entire legal system that we have. Too much capital invested to just throw away. I opt to make it work as it was intended to: for the people instead of for the elites. That will have radical enough consequences as it is.

I think you've completely missed my point, or I'm missing yours.

I'm saying that prohibiting drone use on the off chance a dictator attempts to use them for genocide is pointless because if a dictator was ordering a genocide he would be unlikely to worry about what weapons he was and wasn't allowed to use, he'd just use them any way.

What are you saying?

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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29-05-2012, 04:45 PM (This post was last modified: 29-05-2012 04:59 PM by Scarlet Pimpernel.)
RE: Law enforcement drones over US??????
If you have democratically developed laws, rules, regulations, checks and balances then you have clear, public yardsticks, norms and values that you can apply to everyone equally and impartially. That's the essence of justice. If you don't have democratically developed laws, rules, regulations, checks and balances then there is nothing to base any investigation and/or prosecution on besides one person's personal opinion. Not exactly a basis for impartial justice, is it? Or, if it's based on one group's opinion you have either elite rule, or mob rule. But in neither case will you have open democracy or impartial justice.

Laws, law enforcement, and the legal system are not, and never were, intended for the benefit of lawbreakers (in case there would be confusion about that...) but for the benefit of society, for the benefit of the people applying them!

Without properly functioning laws, law enforcement, and legal system justice is impossible.

Of course many would like a society without justice. Imo more wouldn't.
Which camp are you in?
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29-05-2012, 06:21 PM
RE: Law enforcement drones over US??????
Properly functioning laws, law enforcement, and legal systems prosecute crime fairly and are defined such that only a minority of people are criminals. Laws that everyone breaks, enforcement that is arbitrary and can be applied to punish anyone, and a legal system that treats everyone as a criminal do not serve their function for society.

To drone or not to done is a question of whether appropriate guidelines are in place and are followed to ensure that the citizenry at large is not in fear and that noone is unfairly targeted. It is a question of whether it is being used, is seen to be used, or can be used to suppress minority groups or to enforce the will of the elite.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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