Law of Cause and Effect
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02-02-2012, 05:04 PM
Law of Cause and Effect
I'm debating some theists on Facebook (lol) and they posted Craig. I heard him mention his Cosmological Argument. I remember hearing that the law of cause and effect state for every effect, there is a cause. BUT, I remember hearing that it only applies to changes in matter. Anyone able to confirm or deconfirm this?
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02-02-2012, 05:13 PM
RE: Law of Cause and Effect
I would say that yes, every effect has a cause. But how does that apply to your argument? Is someone calling God the cause of something?

There is also the law of motion. For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. Not sure if that is what you are talking about though.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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02-02-2012, 05:15 PM
RE: Law of Cause and Effect
The cosmological argument states:

1. Everything that began to exist had a cause.
2. The universe exists.
3. The universe must have had a first cause.

It's the famous first cause argument used by theists everywhere.
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02-02-2012, 05:17 PM
RE: Law of Cause and Effect
(02-02-2012 05:15 PM)GwJ Wrote:  The cosmological argument states:

1. Everything that began to exist had a cause.
2. The universe exists.
3. The universe must have had a first cause.

It's the famous first cause argument used by theists everywhere.

Well, I agree that there had to have been a first cause. But that doesn't prove that God is the first cause. It's just the only answer people have. If you have been asked what the first cause was it's completly okay to answer 'I don't know'.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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02-02-2012, 05:18 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2012 05:23 PM by kineo.)
RE: Law of Cause and Effect
(02-02-2012 05:04 PM)GwJ Wrote:  I'm debating some theists on Facebook (lol) and they posted Craig. I heard him mention his Cosmological Argument. I remember hearing that the law of cause and effect state for every effect, there is a cause. BUT, I remember hearing that it only applies to changes in matter. Anyone able to confirm or deconfirm this?

Here's something that you can read/reference that might help.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Kalam

ironchariots Wrote:False dichotomy

The Cosmological argument does not prove that the cause was a supernatural cause, or not a natural cause.

I'd recommend reading the whole thing as much as possible before answering, but ultimately, like Germanyt said, true or not it does not prove the first cause is a supernatural being, let alone the God of the Bible. In addition to that, it only pushes the recursion one step back because then one could ask- "Then what caused God?" The answer you receive might be, "Nothing, God has always existed and will always exist, he is eternal and outside of time." But this isn't a sufficient answer and one could say with just as much certainty that the universe has always existed- or at least the stuff that makes up the universe- in one form or another.
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02-02-2012, 05:46 PM
RE: Law of Cause and Effect
Craig and his Cosmological Argument is so frustrating. How he gets from everything has a first cause to "a god" is that first cause is such a leap it's ridiculous. And as Kineo said the ultimate retort is "what made god?". This out of space and time and always existed shit is too easy an out. The simple answer is we don't know and will likely never know. Which is pretty cool in itself.

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I wasn't . . . until I was
I am . . . until I'm not
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02-02-2012, 07:47 PM
RE: Law of Cause and Effect
Besides, as I understand it, some new discoveries in the field of quantum physics suggest that there are some things that really are completely random, with no cause at all.

So the first premise is already shaky, but the jump from "cause" to "god" would be ridiculous regardless as others have already pointed out.
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02-02-2012, 08:39 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2012 10:22 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Law of Cause and Effect
All serious considerations of cause and effect start with the problem of induction.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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02-02-2012, 08:51 PM
RE: Law of Cause and Effect
My suggestion is to first use Jeff's Law: you can't use an argument that undermines your own position. To do so is inherently contradictory.

Their position boils down to:

1. Everything that began to exist had a cause.
2. god exists.
3. god must have had a first cause.

If they can't explain the first cause of god, then they can't use the argument.

Now look the reverse:

1. If you can't identify a possible first cause, the thing must not exist
2. There is no possible first cause for god
3. Therefore god must not exist

If they try to use this to argue that we must not exist, just argue that it's obvious that we do, however not so for god.

Coming at this point from an entirely different angle, I think you could argue that 300 (adjust as needed) years ago we could only explain where we (humanity) had come from going back a few thousand years (you can adjust that as needed). Today, 300 years later, we can explain where we came from 13.7 billion years ago. Clearly we're making good progress and it's simply a matter of time before we get to the "first cause."
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