Let's Spar
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
09-01-2014, 08:52 PM
RE: Let's Spar
(09-01-2014 07:03 PM)TheStraightener Wrote:  How can we get christians to understand that the bible is not evidence for a claim? The bible IS the claim!
Yeah. That's a real problem.
The most intellectually honest move, is to point out that the bible references itself and explicitly declares itself to be useful to the "man of God" and foolishness to those that don't believe. ( The latter being agreed upon by the non believer.)
Unfortunately, the believer who would introduce the bible as evidence of their position, does not have the mindset receptive to that argument.
This leaves them open to the well deserved thrashing they receive by wielding their own book against them.
After all, if they're not going to acknowledge their own books self stated audience, they're sure as he'll not going to listen to a non believer pointing it out to them.

It also leaves the non believer in the ironic position of being in agreement with the aforementioned self reference re foolishness.

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Kestrel's post
09-01-2014, 09:00 PM
RE: Let's Spar
(09-01-2014 06:42 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(09-01-2014 06:31 PM)Kestrel Wrote:  Free will imposed without the consent of the receiver is self refuting and cannot stand.

Damn. Good answer, I hadn't heard that one. Consider

There's that and the evidence that free will is illusory, but I like it.

Cheers. Thumbsup

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-01-2014, 09:18 PM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2014 09:30 PM by evenheathen.)
RE: Let's Spar
(09-01-2014 07:05 PM)Cobalt Wrote:  
(09-01-2014 06:26 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  But sin is what separates us from god. The wages of sin is death, which is eternal separation from god. God created all that is good, including free will. Free will contains risk that we might reject god and his goodness, thus falling away from the goodness he has created. He didn't create sin, he created us. We choose to turn away from and spoil his perfect creation.

I just wonder that if god did not create sin then who did? If god did not create everything how is he still god?

Sin is the opposite of goodness, which is god and his creation. Kind of like dark isn't a thing, it's just the absence of light. That's what I was going for.

From this:

An Atheist Professor of Philosophy was speaking to his Class on the Problem
Science has with GOD , the ALMIGHTY. He asked one of his New
Students to stand and . . .

Professor Big Grino you Believe in GOD ?
Student : Absolutely, sir.
Professor : Is GOD Good ?
Student : Sure.
Professor : Is GOD ALL - POWERFUL ?
Student : Yes.
Professor : My Brother died of Cancer even though he prayed to GOD to heal
him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But GOD didn't.
How is this GOD good then? Hmm?

(Student was silent )

Professor : You can't answer, can you ? Let's start again, Young fella.
Is GOD Good?
Student : Yes.
Professor : Is Satan good ?
Student : No.
Professor : Where does Satan come from ?
Student : From . . . GOD . . .
Professor : That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student : Yes.
Professor : Evil is everywhere, isn't it ? And GOD did make everything.
Correct?
Student : Yes.
Professor : So who created evil ?

(Student did not answer)

Professor : Is there Sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these
terrible things exist in the world, don't they?
Student : Yes, sir.
Professor : So, who created them ?

(Student had no answer)

Professor : Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe
the world around you. Tell me, son . . . Have you ever seen GOD?
Student : No, sir.
Professor : Tell us if you have ever heard your GOD?
Student : No , sir.
Professor : Have you ever felt your GOD, tasted your GOD , smelt your GOD ?
Have you ever had any sensory perception of GOD for that matter?
Student : No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.
Professor : Yet you still believe in HIM?
Student : Yes.
Professor : According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science
says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student : Nothing. I only have my faith.
Professor : Yes, faith. And that is the problem science has.

Student asks and professor answers
Student : Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Professor : Yes.
Student : And is there such a thing as cold?
Professor : Yes.
Student : No, sir. There isn't,

(The Lecture Theatre became very quiet with this turn of events )

Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega
Heat, white Heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything
called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we
can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is
only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure
cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the
absence of it.

(There was pin-drop silence in the Lecture Theatre )

Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
Professor : Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?
Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something.
You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light . . but if
you have no light constantly, you have nothing and its called darkness,
isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it is, you would be able
to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?

Professor : So what is the point you are making, Young Man ?
Student : Sir, my point is your Philosophical premise is
flawed.
Professor : Flawed ? Can you explain how?
Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is
life and then there is death, a Good GOD and a Bad GOD. You are viewing the
concept of GOD as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science
can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has
never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the
opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a
substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of
it. Now tell me, Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved
from a monkey?
Professor : If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes,
of course, I do.

Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

(The Professor shook his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the
argument was going)

Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work
and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not
teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?

(The class was in uproar )

Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's
brain?

(The class broke out into laughter)

Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain,
felt it, touched or smelt it? . . .No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, Science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures,sir?

(The room was silent. The Professor stared at the student, his face
unfathomable)

Professor : I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.
Student : That is it sir . . . exactly ! The link between MAN & GOD is
FAITH. That is all that keeps things alive and moving.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-01-2014, 11:40 AM
RE: Let's Spar
But that didn't really happen though did it. It's just another story.

By that logic there is no such thing as walking, only slow running. Or it's like saying there's no such thing as dry, only something that's not wet.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheStraightener's post
10-01-2014, 12:17 PM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2014 12:20 PM by Rahn127.)
RE: Let's Spar
(09-01-2014 09:18 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega
Heat, white Heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything
called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we
can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is
only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure
cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the
absence of it.

Cold is not the absence of heat. Cold communicates to others the temperature of something relative to our touch within a certain range. We describe something as hot in the same way. We could describe everything as cold or less cold or more cold if we wanted. It's just how we want to look at it.

Temperature is a scale of motion. When the motion is slower, we describe it as cold and colder and extremely cold.
You can think of hot and cold as fast and slow motion.
The student describe cold as the absence of heat.
The absence of motion is absolute zero, so cold isn't that. Cold is varying degrees of slower motion, lower energy.
We describe the absence of heat as absolute zero.
We describe cold as items that are moving slower than a set prescribed level.

A few words on temperature and negative temperatures





(09-01-2014 09:18 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  (There was pin-drop silence in the Lecture Theatre )

Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
Professor : Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?
Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something.
You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light . . but if
you have no light constantly, you have nothing and its called darkness,
isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it is, you would be able
to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?

Professor : So what is the point you are making, Young Man ?
Student : Sir, my point is your Philosophical premise is
flawed.
Professor : Flawed ? Can you explain how?
Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is
life and then there is death, a Good GOD and a Bad GOD. You are viewing the
concept of GOD as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science
can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has
never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the
opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a
substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of
it.


Again here the student is wrong. Darkness is not the absence of light.
In a room filled with light, you also have a room that is 98% filled with darkness (empty space).
He thinks that light fills a space, when it doesn't. Light reflects from electrons, but the space that the light travels through is still dark.
Sound traveling through air can be loud or quiet. Complete silence isn't the absence of air. The air is still there, just like the darkness is still there.
Darkness doesn't increase as you dim the light. It's just less light.

Student also doesn't understand duality.
Death does exist as a substantive thing. Non-living tissue exists
We can have a duality of opposite concepts. Life and Death

If god is not something we can measure then it has a value of zero.
Everything else that exists has a value.
Your god has zero value in this world. Zero effect in this world. Zero existence

(09-01-2014 09:18 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Evolution blah blah blah


The Student and the Professor both seem to be ignorant about evolution so I'm not even going to go there.

(09-01-2014 09:18 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Brain blah blah blah


But we can verify that the professor has a brain. We can see it, we can touch, smell it and even listen to it function by detecting gamma, beta, alpha, theta & delta waves

http://www.medicalook.com/human_anatomy/...waves.html

Student - You believe something which has no foundational evidence.
Based upon zero evidence, you believe that something with a value of zero exists.
0 does not = 1

Evidence shows us what does exist
Zero evidence shows us nothing

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Rahn127's post
10-01-2014, 07:54 PM
RE: Let's Spar
Haha give this person a block of ice and a slab of marble . Will he say the ice is colder? Or will he say the ice has less heat than the marble.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-01-2014, 07:56 PM
RE: Let's Spar
(10-01-2014 12:17 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(09-01-2014 09:18 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega
Heat, white Heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything
called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we
can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is
only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure
cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the
absence of it.

Cold is not the absence of heat. Cold communicates to others the temperature of something relative to our touch within a certain range. We describe something as hot in the same way. We could describe everything as cold or less cold or more cold if we wanted. It's just how we want to look at it.

Temperature is a scale of motion. When the motion is slower, we describe it as cold and colder and extremely cold.
You can think of hot and cold as fast and slow motion.
The student describe cold as the absence of heat.
The absence of motion is absolute zero, so cold isn't that. Cold is varying degrees of slower motion, lower energy.
We describe the absence of heat as absolute zero.
We describe cold as items that are moving slower than a set prescribed level.

A few words on temperature and negative temperatures





(09-01-2014 09:18 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  (There was pin-drop silence in the Lecture Theatre )

Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
Professor : Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?
Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something.
You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light . . but if
you have no light constantly, you have nothing and its called darkness,
isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it is, you would be able
to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?

Professor : So what is the point you are making, Young Man ?
Student : Sir, my point is your Philosophical premise is
flawed.
Professor : Flawed ? Can you explain how?
Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is
life and then there is death, a Good GOD and a Bad GOD. You are viewing the
concept of GOD as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science
can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has
never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the
opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a
substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of
it.


Again here the student is wrong. Darkness is not the absence of light.
In a room filled with light, you also have a room that is 98% filled with darkness (empty space).
He thinks that light fills a space, when it doesn't. Light reflects from electrons, but the space that the light travels through is still dark.
Sound traveling through air can be loud or quiet. Complete silence isn't the absence of air. The air is still there, just like the darkness is still there.
Darkness doesn't increase as you dim the light. It's just less light.

Student also doesn't understand duality.
Death does exist as a substantive thing. Non-living tissue exists
We can have a duality of opposite concepts. Life and Death

If god is not something we can measure then it has a value of zero.
Everything else that exists has a value.
Your god has zero value in this world. Zero effect in this world. Zero existence

(09-01-2014 09:18 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Evolution blah blah blah


The Student and the Professor both seem to be ignorant about evolution so I'm not even going to go there.

(09-01-2014 09:18 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Brain blah blah blah


But we can verify that the professor has a brain. We can see it, we can touch, smell it and even listen to it function by detecting gamma, beta, alpha, theta & delta waves

http://www.medicalook.com/human_anatomy/...waves.html

Student - You believe something which has no foundational evidence.
Based upon zero evidence, you believe that something with a value of zero exists.
0 does not = 1

Evidence shows us what does exist
Zero evidence shows us nothing

Awesome.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-01-2014, 08:24 PM
RE: Let's Spar
You folks are pretty swift of mind. I don't think I've seen that one about the student and the professor in that scene. I heard the one about the professor telling god to strike him down and one of the students smacked the heck out of him. Thanks again.

[Image: banner580x90_zpse43f1abd.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-01-2014, 08:35 PM
RE: Let's Spar
(09-01-2014 09:18 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Professor : Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe
the world around you.
Yeah, well, about that... any professor worth his salt ought to know that there are more than five senses. Drinking Beverage

[Image: ISHjlaU.gif]

Thanks to Slowminded for posting that image initially.

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-01-2014, 08:36 PM
RE: Let's Spar
Quote:Seeing how atheism/unbelief is not the standard yet

"Atheist" is a position, not a method or "standard".

There is no "standard" to being an atheist because one is not an atheist, anymore than liking the lights off makes you the light switch itself.

I've known people who call themselves atheists who don't educate themselves and stop at " It simply doesn't make sense to me". "Atheist" has nothing to do with degree of education.

"Off" is a position, nothing more. Educating yourself as to why you hold the "off" position is a completely different subject.

I know people who call themselves atheists who claim the transporter from Star Trek will be a future possibility, I call them morons.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: