Let's define atheism, and other misnomers
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28-04-2014, 11:34 AM
RE: Let's define atheism, and other misnomers
(28-04-2014 11:09 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  I have it straight - you and everyone else, except Sam Harris, have it wrong.


What?Blink

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28-04-2014, 11:41 AM
RE: Let's define atheism, and other misnomers
(28-04-2014 11:02 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 10:09 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  We don't yet know each other, I hope you're well! Smile
I have been reading through the thread and actually agree to an extent with some of what you may be trying to say. I will address the points how I have understood them and offer my view. If I am misunderstanding you, please clarify for me.
You are misunderstanding, and it is probably because you are offended by the proposition that you, and every other atheist, have held a dogma of inaccurate doctrines/definitions, because the semantics has never been sorted.

(28-04-2014 10:09 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  1. You are claiming that atheism is a political position due to the fact that it opposes theism directly and theism is accepted as a political position? ... Therefore, to directly oppose one political position automatically creates the opposite new position?
No. I am claiming that atheism is a political doctrine, because it is not possible to be an ontological doctrine that theism is. I made a very good description of it here;
(28-04-2014 07:22 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  As atheists well know, religion was the all-encompassing social organization, including political authority. What people did/do not understand, like a lot of things, like medicine, gravity, and global geography; one of the things was that they did not understand that atheism is a political doctrine, and the problem of not correctly defining it as such has been passed on to our generation, because nobody has taken the time to sort it all out. It has to do with understanding ontology - the study of existence. Theism is an ontological ordering of reality beginning with the assumption that there is a god that ordered the cosmos. And we recognize that they used faulty information, but it was necessary because most people are not all that bright and need to be told what to do and how to do it and so forth. Humanism is the ontological ordering of reality that assumes that human beings define reality and all that exists. And we deploy science/metaphysics to do that. It does not make sense to assume an ontological ordering of reality based on the opposition of another ontological ordering - theism-atheism. And that is what you are doing when you describe atheism as the lack of belief in god - the antithesis of theism. You want to make a difference in this world you better get this straight before the Christians define it correctly for you.

(28-04-2014 10:09 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  If I understand you correctly, I agree with the core of your argument. Where I think you and I differ is on the definitions. Atheism is just a lack belief in God/Gods, no more, no less.
That is the core of the argument - I disagree with that most common definition and I presented a very good argument. That definition is a misnomer - mistakes were made in the past, because of the lack of information and of course, the Church defined things like "atheism."

(28-04-2014 10:09 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  The position opposed to religion politically in my view, is anti-theism. As a human being, I define myself as more than one thing. I am an atheist who has an anti-theist political agenda.
Well, that's not wrong - it's just kind of redundant, because you want to play a semantic diversion.

(28-04-2014 10:09 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  2. You seem to hold the view that arguing about the existence of God is a small thing in the grand scheme of things and that anti-theism (or atheism, I don't see the point in debating semantics) is not organised politically? Agreed, but it is definitely taking hold. I don't think debating God's existence is a waste of time though, I'm English and have seen the benefits of the process over here. America is arguably the most powerful nation on the planet and lack of belief needs to become as culturally normal as belief so that any anti-theistic movement has a chance.
What are the benefits of debating the existence of god???

(28-04-2014 10:09 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  3. You seem to be side swiping people because they're on here arguing with theists instead of out changing the world. With the greatest respect mate, this is a social forum, with different sections, for different conversations. If you want to get in to it politically, start a thread in the relevant section. Also, you don't know what people do or don't do away from here! If that's not enough for you, join some politics forums too. I didn't want to let that slide because I hope you see the irony in taking the position of, you atheists just type shit in forums about religion and don't do anything, when in actual fact, to inform us of our inactivity or political failings, you have achieved this by logging in to a forum and typing shit at us! Big Grin This is fruitless on both sides. I am not trying to be inflammatory, merely drawing attention to it so we can all see how it gets people's backs up unnecessarily. All the best Smile
I'm right, and you are wrong. I participate at the PoliticalForums, my ID is CyberCynic. There are more important things atheists could be doing instead of arguing about the existence of god, and I am years ahead of all of you, and I have invited you all to participate in the advancement of such pressing things such as, a "scientific" knowledge classification system, and a "scientific" political charter system.

Your claim to fame will be for having performed the unreasonable inquisition much akin to the infamous inquisition of Galileo.

I'll come back to you on this. You are incorrect on a lot of things. Specifically definitions. Also, I am not even slightly offended Smile

I'm off to work now, so I will get my teeth in to this tomorrow mate. ... I am happy to have a n open and friendly discussion with you about your points of view but how it goes hinges on both of us. Might I enquire as to where the arrogance comes from? You seem desperate to be inflamatory and I think it's completely pointless. Anyway, I'm not trying to tell you how to post, merely asking for a more civil discourse.

When I come back to you, I will be providing citations for terms like; -
Atheist
Anti-theist etc;

I find it difficult to believe that to conclude whether or not a god exists is not important to you? We both agree that this is a base starting point for a world view.

Also, I specifically stated that I do NOT wish to play a semantics game, so the 'I know you are but what am I?' Debate tactic would be best left on the playground I think. I hope you agree.

Cheers
Andy

A man blames his bad childhood on leprechauns. He claims they don't exist, but yet still says without a doubt that they stole all his money and then killed his parents. That's why he became Leprechaun-Man

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28-04-2014, 11:41 AM
RE: Let's define atheism, and other misnomers
(28-04-2014 11:34 AM)wazzel Wrote:  Sure no problem. Please provide the fourm with the definiton of god that all thiest agree on and we can proceed.

That's exactly right. Although atheists proclaim the importance of science and reason, when it comes to standardizing semantics for standardizing reason - atheists are going to leave it to the Christians.

You want to quit the dumb shit and get to work on this, because they will, and atheists will be charged with having failed in the effort

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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28-04-2014, 11:44 AM
RE: Let's define atheism, and other misnomers
(28-04-2014 11:34 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 11:11 AM)natachan Wrote:  Be very careful sir. Over weaning arrogance is not attractive.
Yeah, what are you going to do - prove me wrong???

If you ever make a claim, I can discuss it. But your attitude suggests this would be a waste of my time. You claim to be smarter than all of us and lack any sense that we might have valid points to make. This means you are incapable of true discussion.

Perhaps an ounce of humility might be in order. Realize that you MIGHT be wrong from time to time.
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28-04-2014, 11:47 AM
RE: Let's define atheism, and other misnomers
(28-04-2014 11:41 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  When I come back to you, I will be providing citations for terms like; -
Atheist
Anti-theist etc;
You want to discuss semantics, then.

(28-04-2014 11:41 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  Also, I specifically stated that I do NOT wish to play a semantics game, so the 'I know you are but what am I?' Debate tactic would be best left on the playground I think. I hope you agree.
You do not know what you are talking about - this debate/discussion is about semantics.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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28-04-2014, 11:48 AM
RE: Let's define atheism, and other misnomers
(28-04-2014 11:41 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 11:34 AM)wazzel Wrote:  Sure no problem. Please provide the fourm with the definiton of god that all thiest agree on and we can proceed.

That's exactly right. Although atheists proclaim the importance of science and reason, when it comes to standardizing semantics for standardizing reason - atheists are going to leave it to the Christians.

You want to quit the dumb shit and get to work on this, because they will, and atheists will be charged with having failed in the effort



Um - I hate to nitpick but maybe I can help You out a tad..........
Yes, it would be best for christians to clearly define the god that they worship. Atheists cannot define something that holds no value, concept, position or meaning to them.
So......... yes........ for those who believe in God........the description and ultimate definition belongs to them.

I am female. I cannot describe for you what life is like with a penis. So what life is like with a penis should be left to a man.

Hope this helps you out.......

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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28-04-2014, 11:50 AM
RE: Let's define atheism, and other misnomers
(28-04-2014 11:41 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 11:34 AM)wazzel Wrote:  Sure no problem. Please provide the fourm with the definiton of god that all thiest agree on and we can proceed.

That's exactly right. Although atheists proclaim the importance of science and reason, when it comes to standardizing semantics for standardizing reason - atheists are going to leave it to the Christians.

You want to quit the dumb shit and get to work on this, because they will, and atheists will be charged with having failed in the effort
[/quote]

Uh... Ok. You seem to be the one struggling with a very simple definition, and because you cannot fathom ever thinking outside of a belief system you were indoctrinated into, then ANY other worldview MUST be an alternate belief system.

Quote:a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/
noun
1.
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism; More

Not a doctrine. Not a system of belief. Not a political viewpoint.

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“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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28-04-2014, 11:51 AM
RE: Let's define atheism, and other misnomers
(28-04-2014 11:47 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  You do not know what you are talking about -


And Yooou could stop being an ass.
Anytime now.


just stop



thanks

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28-04-2014, 11:51 AM
RE: Let's define atheism, and other misnomers
Let's be honest, if we provided a definition of your god, you'd disagree with it, spew some bullshit, and just in general move the goal posts.

This whole topic is in no way about semantics, you just wanted to throw all your toys out of the pram, and expect everyone else to pick them up and tell you what a good boy you are.
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28-04-2014, 11:52 AM
RE: Let's define atheism, and other misnomers
(28-04-2014 11:31 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 11:25 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  And you are claiming this is somehow relevant how?
You do not want the Christians to straighten this shit out for you - fuck nut.

Xtians don't "straighten out" fucking ANYTHING for me, fuck you very much. Since you have been living in a cave all your life, I'll clarify that they are getting mauled in the public square now.


Quote:You want to be able to claim that you recognized the problems and that you put forth your best efforts to implement the corrections in society.

You errantly assume a great deal about what people do and do not do.


(28-04-2014 11:34 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 11:11 AM)natachan Wrote:  Be very careful sir. Over weaning arrogance is not attractive.
Yeah, what are you going to do - prove me wrong???

You've already done that yourself, Mr. Dunning-Krueger.

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