Let's make a deal ...
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21-07-2015, 11:41 PM
RE: Let's make a deal ...
So you are proposing creating a system where you relegate the rest of religious people to be like the Amish.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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22-07-2015, 03:47 AM
RE: Let's make a deal ...
(21-07-2015 11:35 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 04:24 PM)ArchibaldFunkdust Wrote:  There is no measure the process of evolution determines for our species that tells us moving away from certain race or gender based subjugations in certain geographical locations (this is not a global phenomenon) is progress.

It's ok to feel good about the changes we have made but the reality is the fundamental nature of humanity has not changed, we will find and have found other ways of subjugating people and we always will - it is in our nature.

Archi

I think you're being too negative and I don't see any reason to assume that all progress is ultimately futile, which is what you seem to be saying.

To be clear, I'm not saying progress is futile, I'm saying the very idea of progress is irrelevant. The facts of evolution are not positive, negative, good, bad or any other value, they are just facts.

Evolution tells us nothing about progress, only change. No other animal views its existence in terms of progression and there is no evolutionary reason for humans to do it.

The fact that we do it should not simply be accepted without critical analysis. One thing is clear to me, 'progress' is used to justify a lot of things, perhaps we should re-evaluate that.

Archi

"I love the term magic realism. It's about expanding how you see the world. I think we live in an age where we're just hammered to think this is what the world is. Everything's saying 'That's the world.' And it's not the world. The world is a million possible things." - TG

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22-07-2015, 03:49 AM
RE: Let's make a deal ...
(21-07-2015 11:41 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  So you are proposing creating a system where you relegate the rest of religious people to be like the Amish.

No, I am proposing a system where religious people stop acting like hypocrites.

"I love the term magic realism. It's about expanding how you see the world. I think we live in an age where we're just hammered to think this is what the world is. Everything's saying 'That's the world.' And it's not the world. The world is a million possible things." - TG

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22-07-2015, 07:02 AM
RE: Let's make a deal ...
morondog is correct. Our solution is better than theirs, and it will win out in the end. That is the best way of doing it. SHOW that your solution is better and people will eventually go to it. Why do you think that "None" is the fast growing religious affiliation in American right now?

Do not feel bad about arguing with pastors etc who push this garbage, educate yourself to the best of your ability and then you can help educate others, but always be reasonable. As they decline in numbers, you're going to see a stronger push from them, as you do with any group before they die out. It will happen, give it time.

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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22-07-2015, 07:06 AM
RE: Let's make a deal ...
(22-07-2015 03:49 AM)ArchibaldFunkdust Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 11:41 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  So you are proposing creating a system where you relegate the rest of religious people to be like the Amish.

No, I am proposing a system where religious people stop acting like hypocrites.

Yeah... which is that. The religious people adjusting themselves to act like the Amish.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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22-07-2015, 04:21 PM
RE: Let's make a deal ...
(22-07-2015 07:06 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(22-07-2015 03:49 AM)ArchibaldFunkdust Wrote:  No, I am proposing a system where religious people stop acting like hypocrites.

Yeah... which is that. The religious people adjusting themselves to act like the Amish.

... or they accept science is a fundamental part of life and they stop shovelling their anti-science agenda. The 'Amish' angle is clearly an ironic device designed to highlight the absurdity of an anti-science agenda.

"I love the term magic realism. It's about expanding how you see the world. I think we live in an age where we're just hammered to think this is what the world is. Everything's saying 'That's the world.' And it's not the world. The world is a million possible things." - TG

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22-07-2015, 04:26 PM
RE: Let's make a deal ...
(22-07-2015 07:02 AM)microterf Wrote:  morondog is correct. Our solution is better than theirs, and it will win out in the end. That is the best way of doing it. SHOW that your solution is better and people will eventually go to it. Why do you think that "None" is the fast growing religious affiliation in American right now?

Do not feel bad about arguing with pastors etc who push this garbage, educate yourself to the best of your ability and then you can help educate others, but always be reasonable. As they decline in numbers, you're going to see a stronger push from them, as you do with any group before they die out. It will happen, give it time.

I'd like to reply but I'm not actually sure what you're saying. Who are you referring to when you say 'our' and 'theirs'? What 'solution' are you referring to?

Who is arguing with pastors? Am I in the right thread...?

"I love the term magic realism. It's about expanding how you see the world. I think we live in an age where we're just hammered to think this is what the world is. Everything's saying 'That's the world.' And it's not the world. The world is a million possible things." - TG

Salman Rushdie talks to Terry Gilliam
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23-07-2015, 12:05 AM
RE: Let's make a deal ...
You say that we should all shut up and not talk to each other. I and Microterf say the opposite. We *have* facts on our side, sure it may be annoying to listen to the incessant dissonance of the religious but ultimately communication will first result in acceptance of atheism and then probably (if Europe is any guide) the near-total abandonment of religion.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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23-07-2015, 02:15 AM
RE: Let's make a deal ...
(23-07-2015 12:05 AM)morondog Wrote:  You say that we should all shut up and not talk to each other. I and Microterf say the opposite. We *have* facts on our side, sure it may be annoying to listen to the incessant dissonance of the religious but ultimately communication will first result in acceptance of atheism and then probably (if Europe is any guide) the near-total abandonment of religion.

It's not facts that matter but rather quality of life or former communist indoctrination I would say. Countries with most non believers are either quite wealthy or formerly associated with USSR or as is the case of Vietnam are somewhat communist now.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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23-07-2015, 06:19 AM
RE: Let's make a deal ...
(22-07-2015 04:26 PM)ArchibaldFunkdust Wrote:  
(22-07-2015 07:02 AM)microterf Wrote:  morondog is correct. Our solution is better than theirs, and it will win out in the end. That is the best way of doing it. SHOW that your solution is better and people will eventually go to it. Why do you think that "None" is the fast growing religious affiliation in American right now?

Do not feel bad about arguing with pastors etc who push this garbage, educate yourself to the best of your ability and then you can help educate others, but always be reasonable. As they decline in numbers, you're going to see a stronger push from them, as you do with any group before they die out. It will happen, give it time.

I'd like to reply but I'm not actually sure what you're saying. Who are you referring to when you say 'our' and 'theirs'? What 'solution' are you referring to?

Who is arguing with pastors? Am I in the right thread...?

"Our solution" is referring to atheists, scientists, etc. which you were referring to with progress. "Their solution" is what you were referring to as them living by what they believe. Just show that you can love others and treat them with respect, and you can learn and understand science without cognitive dissonance if you don't have a 2,000 year old book that you believe has all of the answers.

As far as arguing with pastors, I meant to defend your position, and educate everyone you can when the subject comes up. If they are pushing a position of religious dogma, then don't feel apologetically correct them, and debate them if you have to.

morondog pointed out what we are trying to say very well, but I will add one thing to it. The religious love to breed like crazy! So if you just separated everybody, they would outgrow us and we would lose any ground that we have gained over the last 20 years.

Education is the key. Another fun fact is that people who become the best activists aren't the people who buy never bought into the bullshit, it's the people who really believed everything but now understand they were wrong. They have lived through the danger of religion.

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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