Leviticus, Adultery, and Gay Marriage
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08-02-2016, 10:19 AM
Leviticus, Adultery, and Gay Marriage
Leviticus, Adultery, and Gay Marriage
By The Magic Wombat


1. Leviticus lists rules God has given in descending order of importance. The Death Penalty ones come first, and work their way down to the ones that carry no penalty.

2. Adultery is mentioned in Leviticus 20:10. It prohibits people from divorcing and remarrying, and is a death penalty offense. (Even for the person who was not married before!)

3. A little further down, in Leviticus 20:13 is the prohibition against men having sex together. Same penalty—death, but is further down the list.

4. Because the entire list is in decreasing order of sin, remarrying after divorce is WORSE to God than two guys pumping themselves into each other.

5. Any Christian who is willing to trade with or be friends with or work with people who commit adultery, or divorce and remarry, are endorsing the adulterous lifestyle MORE than a baker who bakes a gay wedding cake.

6. The concept of “Jesus forgives them of their past sins” does not apply to adulterers, because their sin is ongoing. Every minute they stay re-married, they are an affront to God. It is a CONTINUING sin for which they do not get absolution because they never admit to the sin and take the required step to at least attempt to stop doing the sin. (One must stop committing the sin before one can request absolution.)

7. Gay marriage is NOT prohibited anywhere in the Bible. Gay sex is what is prohibited. Thus, making a cake for a gay wedding is not wrong. Despite the fact gay marriage was allowed prior to 342 CE, the Bible, and God, were silent on it. One could argue that handing a gay man a condom to use prior to gay sex is “ratifying” their “sin”, but it would still be no worse than, and probably less than, the sin of helping a divorced person get married, or associating with them. (Remember, God has ordered you to put those adulterers to death, anyway.)

8. Lesbian sex is NOT prohibited anywhere in the Bible. Nowhere. To God, two women going at it is LESS than the sin of wearing cotton and flax at the same time—which got you no penalty anyway—because God never saw fit to mention a penalty. Thus, one cannot even argue that lesbian weddings promote sin, because they become married in a non-forbidden ceremony and union, and then any and all sex they engage in is exempt from the fornication rule as they are married!

9. Christians do NOT get to argue that the adultery rules are “Old Testament” and thus do not need to be followed and the gay rules DO need to be followed because, as you note, the two rules are about four sentences apart in the same chapter of the same book of the Old testament. If the rule against adultery was relaxed by the New Testament, the rule against gay sex was relaxed AT LEAST as much.

10. These Bible laws were brought to you by—if you believe in him—God. That means you must take the above laws AS THEY ARE GIVEN IN THE BIBLE, and OBEY them.

If you do not believe in God, none of this applies, and you get to have all the consensual sex you want in whatever coupling patterns you enjoy, and you STILL get to keep your civil rights. YAY!!!

Also, any baker which refuses to bake a gay wedding cake, or clerk who refuses to issue gay marriage licenses, and does not ask heterosexual couples if either of them have been married before, is a flaming hypocrite. Anyone against gay marriage, and not at least equally as in favor of laws that would prohibit previously married and divorced people from remarrying, is also a flaming hypocrite.
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08-02-2016, 12:00 PM
RE: Leviticus, Adultery, and Gay Marriage
(08-02-2016 10:19 AM)The Magic Wombat Wrote:  1. Leviticus lists rules God has given in descending order of importance. The Death Penalty ones come first, and work their way down to the ones that carry no penalty.

Who do you believe wrote Leviticus, and who do you believe the author is addressing?
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08-02-2016, 12:30 PM
RE: Leviticus, Adultery, and Gay Marriage
Leviticus never addressed "gay marriage". The concept of sexual "orientation" had not arisen in the history of human ideas.

Read and learn :

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid117446

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-02-2016, 01:03 PM
RE: Leviticus, Adultery, and Gay Marriage
Isn't referring a believer to an atheist Web site for validation of an argument a bit like a believer referring an atheist to the Bible?
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08-02-2016, 01:38 PM
RE: Leviticus, Adultery, and Gay Marriage
(08-02-2016 01:03 PM)jabeady Wrote:  Isn't referring a believer to an atheist Web site for validation of an argument a bit like a believer referring an atheist to the Bible?

Facts are facts. The facts in my piece are research by Jewish scholars. Believers.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-02-2016, 04:18 PM
RE: Leviticus, Adultery, and Gay Marriage
(08-02-2016 01:38 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-02-2016 01:03 PM)jabeady Wrote:  Isn't referring a believer to an atheist Web site for validation of an argument a bit like a believer referring an atheist to the Bible?

Facts are facts. The facts in my piece are research by Jewish scholars. Believers.

(19-05-2012 04:12 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  ref : Drs. Shawna Dolansky, and Richard Elliott Friedman, "The Bible Now", and "Who Wrote the Bible"

On what grounds do you call these two "believers"? -Maybe they are. I just can't find any information online about what their level of Jewish observance is.
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08-02-2016, 04:33 PM
RE: Leviticus, Adultery, and Gay Marriage
(08-02-2016 04:18 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(08-02-2016 01:38 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Facts are facts. The facts in my piece are research by Jewish scholars. Believers.

On what grounds do you call these two "believers"? -Maybe they are. I just can't find any information online about what their level of Jewish observance is.

I never said they were "observant".
They are both quite unique. As most academics at their level, they don't exist in the "black and white" world.
http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Face-Richar...006062258X
http://carleton.ca/chum/people/shawna-dolansky/

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-02-2016, 04:42 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2016 04:59 PM by The Magic Wombat.)
RE: Leviticus, Adultery, and Gay Marriage
(08-02-2016 12:30 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Leviticus never addressed "gay marriage". The concept of sexual "orientation" had not arisen in the history of human ideas.

Read and learn :

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid117446

While what you are saying is accurate, the problem is that to a Fundie, all of your facts are irrelevant. They believe the Bible is the unerring Word of God and that it applies to everyone. To point out that it was designed to guide people who thought heterosexuality is the norm and doesn't apply to gays meets with one swift response. Here is how it goes:

You: The Bible was written at a time when people did not understand that some people prefer to be gay, and thus the rules against homosexual acts do not include provisions for gays and besides, the subtleties are nuanced.

Fundie: The Bible is the Unerring Word of God and applies to everyone.

You: No, it doesn't.

Fundies: Yes it does.

You: Doesn't!

Fundie: Does!

You: Doesn't!

Fundie: Does!

And so it goes for the next 10 minutes. And, sadly, you have done nothing to convince the skeptical listener that your argument is correct. The fact that words have nuances, and there are recent sociological and sexuality discoveries does nothing to prevent a Fundie from saying, "God knew all of that when he told us heterosexuality was wrong."

Your information is important, but suffers from allowing a Fundies to say, "That does not apply."

I avoid all of that by letting the Fundies have their "toys" and pointing out to the skeptical or doubtful how stupid the Christian toys set is. I try to point out the abject stupidity of the Christian Dogma when one carefully analyzes and compared against itself.

No external facts, just the Bible itself.

Let's face it, Christians get a few details shoved their way by their leaders, and off they run. My job is to show the rest of the world that just like Wile E. Coyote, they have run off a cliff and they just don't know it yet. Their own Bible is used as a weapon of logic and reason against Christianity by examining it in greater detail.

And they can never say that another portion of the Bible does not apply. Once they do, they have lost the debate and they know it, because if they can discount a single word of the Bible, we get to discount ALL of it.

Besides, I just like mocking the blowhards! Cool
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08-02-2016, 05:12 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2016 05:18 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Leviticus, Adultery, and Gay Marriage
(08-02-2016 04:42 PM)The Magic Wombat Wrote:  
(08-02-2016 12:30 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Leviticus never addressed "gay marriage". The concept of sexual "orientation" had not arisen in the history of human ideas.

Read and learn :

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid117446

While what you are saying is accurate, the problem is that to a Fundie, all of your facts are irrelevant. They believe the Bible is the unerring Word of God and that it applies to everyone. To point out that it was designed to guide people who thought heterosexuality is the norm and doesn't apply to gays meets with one swift response. Here is how it goes:

You: The Bible was written at a time when people did not understand that some people prefer to be gay, and thus the rules against homosexual acts do not include provisions for gays and besides, the subtleties are nuanced.

Fundie: The Bible is the Unerring Word of God and applies to everyone.

You: No, it doesn't.

Fundies: Yes it does.

You: Doesn't!

Fundie: Does!

You: Doesn't!

Fundie: Does!

And so it goes for the next 10 minutes. And, sadly, you have done nothing to convince the skeptical listener that your argument is correct. The fact that words have nuances, and there are recent sociological and sexuality discoveries does nothing to prevent a Fundie from saying, "God knew all of that when he told us heterosexuality was wrong."

Your information is important, but suffers from allowing a Fundies to say, "That does not apply."

I avoid all of that by letting the Fundies have their "toys" and pointing out to the skeptical or doubtful how stupid the Christian toys set is. I try to point out the abject stupidity of the Christian Dogma when one carefully analyzes and compared against itself.

No external facts, just the Bible itself.

Let's face it, Christians get a few details shoved their way by their leaders, and off they run. My job is to show the rest of the world that just like Wile E. Coyote, they have run off a cliff and they just don't know it yet. Their own Bible is used as a weapon of logic and reason against Christianity by examining it in greater detail.

And they can never say that another portion of the Bible does not apply. Once they do, they have lost the debate and they know it, because if they can discount a single word of the Bible, we get to discount ALL of it.

Besides, I just like mocking the blowhards! Cool

1. They say that the "old law" no longer applies (even though Paul said it both does, and does not .... contradictory).
2. If this applies, so do the injunctions present in ALL the other 628 legal norms, and requirements. Do they still sacrifice goats ? Do they eat shell-fish ? If they don't sacrifice, and do not meet the food laws they are hypocrites, and they can't "cherry-pick" this. They don't really do what they were told anyway. Matthew 5:18 "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Is everything accomplished ? Hahahaha. They therefore, MUST follow every single letter of the Hebrew law, as Jesus told them. Do they ? ............. buncha hypocrites.


It's very easy to derail their arguments with a little information, and THEN hit them with the reality of the cultural norms "in context". Also there is NOT ONE norm that was not already present in the culture BEFORE the texts were written. The Bible sanctioned secular custom. Not the other way around. There is NOTHING new or "ethically unique" in the Bible, and they can never prove there is or was.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-02-2016, 05:41 PM
RE: Leviticus, Adultery, and Gay Marriage
(08-02-2016 05:12 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  1. They say that the "old law" no longer applies (even though Paul said it both does, and does not .... contradictory).

2. If this applies, so do the injunctions present in ALL the other 628 legal norms, and requirements. Do they still sacrifice goats ? Do they eat shell-fish ? If they don't, they can't "cherry-pick" this.

Actually, they can. In fact, the prohibition against eating shellfish was specifically voided in the New Testament. Christians get to look at the old Testament as a bunch of rules they are not required to follow because Jesus vacated the rules. I merely point out that if they claim the Old testament does not apply, then they can't claim it applies to others.

Either the Old Testament ALSO applies to them, and thus adultery (remarrying after divorce) is wrong for everyone, OR if the adultery rules don't apply, then the anti-homosexual rules also don't apply.

(08-02-2016 05:12 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It's very easy to derail their arguments with a little information, and THEN hit them with the reality of the cultural norms "in context". Also there is NOT ONE norm that was not already present in the culture BEFORE the texts were written. The Bible sanctioned secular custom. Not the other way around. There is NOTHING new or "ethically unique" in the Bible.

I disagree. They can argue your "cultural norms" are merely obfuscation in attempt to derail God's Eternal Laws. They then get to argue that your references are clearly disputed and disproved by the sheer weight of Biblical scholars.

And at that point, you are stuck in a tar pit with an enemy that wants both of you to drown in it.

Me, I prefer to know the Bible so tight that I can illustrate either that it:

1. Contradicts itself
2. Shows the Fundie to be a hypocrite that is ignorant of the Bible.

Let's face it, when you are on a college campus, and the Fundies are spewing their anti-abortion drivel, it REALLY suckerpunches them to walk up and ask REALLY loudly and authoritatively:

"If The Bible is anti-abortion, how come the ONLY time it is mentioned in the Bible is Numbers 5: 11-31 which details the method by which the priests may cause the abortion of a fetus of a child where the wife has been unfaithful?

They have usually never dealt with that section, or have heard it in passing. If they brush it off you simply state:

"Whoa! You are here telling these people your interpretation of how God views abortions, but let's look at the only passage that mentions abortion in the WHOLE Bible, and says it is allowed!"

And you pull out your copy of the Bible you have borrowed from someone there (before you started your spiel) and in a loud voice, start to read number 5: 11-31

You have pulled them into a game they cannot win. Their own Bible contradicts what they are saying.

Not only have you shown them to be wrong, but you have shown them to be frauds who are either ignorant of their religion, or liars.

Neither of those wins converts.

Now, having said that, if your methodology works, run with it. I would never suggest that my views are 100% correct. All I am saying is it is easier for me to prevail using my method. Personal style matters, and mine works for me. But if yours works for you, you keep doing it, because we need to get the word out that ignorance ain't cool!

And everyone reading this, use what works best for you. I have some pointers, BB has some pointers. Plagiarize from both of us and hone your own style that works for you!
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