Liar, Lunatic or Lord? Or... by Matt Dillahunty
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29-01-2016, 05:33 PM
RE: Liar, Lunatic or Lord? Or... by Matt Dillahunty
(29-01-2016 08:29 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I didn't even like Narnia as a kid, but then again, I'm not into that type of fantasy fiction.

Lewis' close friend J.R.R. Tolkien strenuously disliked "Jack's" Narnia books. He correction (IMO) criticized it as clumsy allegory and, worse, a completely unoriginal grab-bag of existing childish fantasy tropes (for Aslan's sake, fucking Santa Claus is in it!)

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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30-01-2016, 08:55 AM
RE: Liar, Lunatic or Lord? Or... by Matt Dillahunty
(29-01-2016 08:14 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  When you apply the legend argument it all falls into place really doesn't it?

There are numerous instances of individuals who became legendary in historical times not because of what they did, but what others claimed they had done. You only have to look at the examples of Abraham Lincoln or Winston Churchill or Adolf Hitler to see how vested interests or propaganda can result in embedded myths.

In some instances those individuals are a party to the myth-making, sometimes not......but however you look at it none of Lewis's arguments stack up.

You could also add Mohammad (PBUH) and Joseph Smith to the list. Although Joseph Smith may be better categorized as a liar and a lunatic.

"Why hast thou forsaken me, o deity whose existence I doubt..." - Dr. Sheldon Cooper
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30-01-2016, 08:58 AM
RE: Liar, Lunatic or Lord? Or... by Matt Dillahunty
(30-01-2016 08:55 AM)mgoering Wrote:  
(29-01-2016 08:14 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  When you apply the legend argument it all falls into place really doesn't it?

There are numerous instances of individuals who became legendary in historical times not because of what they did, but what others claimed they had done. You only have to look at the examples of Abraham Lincoln or Winston Churchill or Adolf Hitler to see how vested interests or propaganda can result in embedded myths.

In some instances those individuals are a party to the myth-making, sometimes not......but however you look at it none of Lewis's arguments stack up.

You could also add Mohammad (PBUH) and Joseph Smith to the list. Although Joseph Smith may be better categorized as a liar and a lunatic.

I think more liar. Considering he was a convicted conman who was run out of many places for shady dealings.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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30-01-2016, 09:04 AM
RE: Liar, Lunatic or Lord? Or... by Matt Dillahunty
(30-01-2016 08:55 AM)mgoering Wrote:  
(29-01-2016 08:14 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  When you apply the legend argument it all falls into place really doesn't it?

There are numerous instances of individuals who became legendary in historical times not because of what they did, but what others claimed they had done. You only have to look at the examples of Abraham Lincoln or Winston Churchill or Adolf Hitler to see how vested interests or propaganda can result in embedded myths.

In some instances those individuals are a party to the myth-making, sometimes not......but however you look at it none of Lewis's arguments stack up.

You could also add Mohammad (PBUH) and Joseph Smith to the list. Although Joseph Smith may be better categorized as a liar and a lunatic.

One thing they have in common is that the majority of all religious icons have no or little evidence of existence and even less that they in fact were religious icons at the time of their supposed existence.

We're still asking for evidence and getting nothing.

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30-01-2016, 07:57 PM
RE: Liar, Lunatic or Lord? Or... by Matt Dillahunty
Most, if not all people lie from time to time.
Many people are lunatics, including preachers.

No-one has ever been known to be a god with god powers.

What is the likelihood of a random person being a liar?
being a lunatic?
Being a god?

Is Jesus (given what little information there is about him, we don't even know if he ever existed) any different to a random person?



Why does C.S Lewis default to Lord? Why does he take the position that we need proof that Jesus was either a liar or lunatic OTHERWISE he must have been a god?

We could easily say, well there is no proof that Jesus was a god and no proof Jesus was a liar THEREFORE he must have been a lunatic.


But of course, there was no Jesus. Jesus is a legend either entirely fictional or inspired by non magical person or persons.
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30-01-2016, 10:31 PM
RE: Liar, Lunatic or Lord? Or... by Matt Dillahunty
(30-01-2016 08:58 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(30-01-2016 08:55 AM)mgoering Wrote:  You could also add Mohammad (PBUH) and Joseph Smith to the list. Although Joseph Smith may be better categorized as a liar and a lunatic.

I think more liar. Considering he was a convicted conman who was run out of many places for shady dealings.

Agreed. Not lunatic.

"Oh, sorry, no, I mean, of course you can sleep with my wife."

I see no lunacy there.

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30-01-2016, 10:42 PM
RE: Liar, Lunatic or Lord? Or... by Matt Dillahunty
(30-01-2016 07:57 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Why does C.S Lewis default to Lord? Why does he take the position that we need proof that Jesus was either a liar or lunatic OTHERWISE he must have been a god?


Because it takes advantage of a Christian's already accepted assumptions, such as the existence of a god and the supernatural. The Lord options requires these assumptions, the other two do not, and are thus always more probable by definition. But to someone who already internally accepts those premises? When you assume the supernatural, then it looks like a level playing field; only then can you seriously consider Lord as being more probable than the other two options.

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31-01-2016, 04:34 AM
RE: Liar, Lunatic or Lord? Or... by Matt Dillahunty
Lunatic.

That's assuming he existed.

Definitely lunatic.

Sapere aude
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01-02-2016, 08:17 AM
RE: Liar, Lunatic or Lord? Or... by Matt Dillahunty
If you applied the liar, lunatic or lord to everyone on the planet, what would you end up with ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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01-02-2016, 08:20 AM
RE: Liar, Lunatic or Lord? Or... by Matt Dillahunty
(30-01-2016 10:42 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(30-01-2016 07:57 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Why does C.S Lewis default to Lord? Why does he take the position that we need proof that Jesus was either a liar or lunatic OTHERWISE he must have been a god?


Because it takes advantage of a Christian's already accepted assumptions, such as the existence of a god and the supernatural. The Lord options requires these assumptions, the other two do not, and are thus always more probable by definition. But to someone who already internally accepts those premises? When you assume the supernatural, then it looks like a level playing field; only then can you seriously consider Lord as being more probable than the other two options.

^^^^^^^
This.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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