Liberal? Conservative?
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22-04-2017, 08:38 PM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2017 08:46 PM by epronovost.)
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
(22-04-2017 03:54 PM)Lucipurr Wrote:  My views are mixed, it depends on the issue. I don't like labelling myself these days.

I support LGBT rights, abortion, welfare, universal healthcare, unrestricted freedom of speech, and most things that would be associated with "liberal" values.

On the other hand, I support the right to bear arms (with some common sense regulations, obviously), the death penalty in certain cases, and a strict (but fair) immigration system.

I would also wonder how you define "unrestricted freedom of speech" (I supposed that even in your vision of unrestricted freedom of speech there would still be laws against harassment, threats, false alarms, fraud, perjury and public disturbance which means there would still be restrictions)

I would also wonder what a strict (but fair) immigration system is supposed to be looking like.

Are willing to develop a bit on both of these concept?

PS: considering my stances on various political issues, I would be described by most as a far-left proponent thus not exactly a liberal in classical sense of the term, since I support business regulation by democratic states and unionism.

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
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23-04-2017, 06:16 PM
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
(18-04-2017 08:10 AM)Missiletowe Wrote:  I've always found that to be a curious question.

I mean, I believe in a standing military, the death penalty, gun ownership... So all my liberal friends think I'm a conservative.

I also believe in same sex marriage, abortion rights, legalizing marijuana, single payer healthcare... So all my conservative coworkers think I'm gay.
I think in USA often Liberal is associated with Democratic positions and conservative is associated with Republican positions. But I don't think it makes sense to do this.

In my view liberal means allowing of diversity and autonomy and conservative means control in particular forcing people to adhere to status quo and traditions and norms.
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25-04-2017, 11:15 AM
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
I'm about in the same boat. I have to agree with my mom on some things. Political Correctness, Gun Rights, and Death Penalty. However there were times I found they even crossed over into 'Liberal' territory.

Seems like if I dare insult or say something against Christians I am to be silenced and called a demon. That is very much what PC does to people, silences them so people can't hear the truth or opinions. They are against abortion yet will kill off prisoners and abortion doctors left and right.

Democrats are just annoying at times, pandering to those who wish to have opinions silenced and apologists who's shameful way of sweeping bad things under the rugs make me sick.

I can never debate my mom, seems she tries to say everything so fast that I can't keep up and can't come up with a retort only to later remember what it was. It's frustrating for her to think she had a leash on me form becoming liberal when she reads out how ironic it is a women who spit on a deputy gets two years sentence. If these republicans are all for rights... I don't see it.

"Governments don't want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking That is against their interests.
They want obedient workers people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork And just dumb enough to passively accept it."

- George Carlin
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25-04-2017, 03:56 PM
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
I'm rather surprised by the quantity of people who support the death penalty. I would have expected it to be a more marginal position.

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
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25-04-2017, 04:37 PM
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
(25-04-2017 03:56 PM)epronovost Wrote:  I'm rather surprised by the quantity of people who support the death penalty. I would have expected it to be a more marginal position.
It depends on a few things.

For me, if they could make it cheaper then I'd be all for it.
I'm all for doing what is cheapest. If it is cheaper to put a dangerous person to death rather than keep them alive for decades in prison then lets do the cheap option.
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25-04-2017, 05:14 PM
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
(25-04-2017 04:37 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(25-04-2017 03:56 PM)epronovost Wrote:  I'm rather surprised by the quantity of people who support the death penalty. I would have expected it to be a more marginal position.
It depends on a few things.

For me, if they could make it cheaper then I'd be all for it.
I'm all for doing what is cheapest. If it is cheaper to put a dangerous person to death rather than keep them alive for decades in prison then lets do the cheap option.

I find hypocritical and ironic that a person who killed for financial gain is going to be killed to save money. I vastly prefer to attempt teaching that killer why what he did was wrong and support the family and firend of the victim in the healing process. It cost a lot, isn't always effectve and requires a lot of effort, but it gives more value to human life and dignity (both that of the killer, his victim and their friends and family). That's just me though. Feel free to disagree.

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25-04-2017, 09:24 PM
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
(22-04-2017 03:54 PM)Lucipurr Wrote:  My views are mixed, it depends on the issue. I don't like labelling myself these days.

I support LGBT rights, abortion, welfare, universal healthcare, unrestricted freedom of speech, and most things that would be associated with "liberal" values.

On the other hand, I support the right to bear arms (with some common sense regulations, obviously), the death penalty in certain cases, and a strict (but fair) immigration system.

I don't think "unrestricted freedom of speech" belongs on the list of "liberal" values any longer--an increasing number of liberals believe in banning offensive and hateful speech.

But that's a problem with labels--they do not apply uniformly to a category. Some liberals like Howard Dean who recently opined on the topic oppose free speech. I've seen Dean's arguments enough on this board to know a fair share of liberals support Dean's position. Some liberals like Bernie Sanders or Lizabeth Warren when recently questioned about Dean's arguments opposing free speech have chosen to defend free speech.
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26-04-2017, 03:40 AM
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
(25-04-2017 09:24 PM)BryanS Wrote:  I don't think "unrestricted freedom of speech" belongs on the list of "liberal" values any longer--an increasing number of liberals believe in banning offensive and hateful speech.

I think everyone should be against the kind of deliberate lying we are hearing from too many people these days. If we can't hold political elections without politicians lying about their opposition, we are in big trouble, and Donald Trump has shown that such a strategy can work.
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26-04-2017, 04:30 AM
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
(26-04-2017 03:40 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(25-04-2017 09:24 PM)BryanS Wrote:  I don't think "unrestricted freedom of speech" belongs on the list of "liberal" values any longer--an increasing number of liberals believe in banning offensive and hateful speech.

I think everyone should be against the kind of deliberate lying we are hearing from too many people these days. If we can't hold political elections without politicians lying about their opposition, we are in big trouble, and Donald Trump has shown that such a strategy can work.

Are you proposing that lying should be illegal/banned speech? You appear to be justifying a position of opposing free speech by arguing the speech you find offensive is just lies anyway.
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26-04-2017, 06:01 AM (This post was last modified: 26-04-2017 07:04 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
(26-04-2017 04:30 AM)BryanS Wrote:  Are you proposing that lying should be illegal/banned speech? You appear to be justifying a position of opposing free speech by arguing the speech you find offensive is just lies anyway.

No, of course not. I'm saying people should hold themselves and others to higher standards for accuracy. Right now, it's like they're not even trying.

I'll give you an example. Before the election one of my sisters, who is a libertarian-leaning Republican, said to me, "I could never vote for Hillary Clinton because she is a felon." That was simply not true. Clinton had never even been indicted, let alone prosecuted and convicted, which means she was by definition not a felon. Yet my sister not only believed this, but repeated it and used it as an excuse to vote for Donald Trump.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. She should have said to herself, "Wait a minute. That makes no sense. Someone is trying to appeal to my prejudices." She should never have either believed it or repeated it, especially since she knew it was an insult to me personally as a Clinton supporter. My sister's and her husband's political biases are the reason we are currently not on speaking terms.

Atheists should understand this point especially. We are not trying to outlaw religions. We are encouraging people to think more clearly and be more accurate about religious ideas.
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