Liberal? Conservative?
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26-04-2017, 08:49 AM
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
(26-04-2017 06:01 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(26-04-2017 04:30 AM)BryanS Wrote:  Are you proposing that lying should be illegal/banned speech? You appear to be justifying a position of opposing free speech by arguing the speech you find offensive is just lies anyway.

No, of course not. I'm saying people should hold themselves and others to higher standards for accuracy. Right now, it's like they're not even trying.

I'll give you an example. Before the election one of my sisters, who is a libertarian-leaning Republican, said to me, "I could never vote for Hillary Clinton because she is a felon." That was simply not true. Clinton had never even been indicted, let alone prosecuted and convicted, which means she was by definition not a felon. Yet my sister not only believed this, but repeated it and used it as an excuse to vote for Donald Trump.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. She should have said to herself, "Wait a minute. That makes no sense. Someone is trying to appeal to my prejudices." She should never have either believed it or repeated it, especially since she knew it was an insult to me personally as a Clinton supporter. My sister's and her husband's political biases are the reason we are currently not on speaking terms.

Atheists should understand this point especially. We are not trying to outlaw religions. We are encouraging people to think more clearly and be more accurate about religious ideas.

I can agree with that. People get trapped in their ideological bubble, and although an imperfect solution, maximizing free speech rights is one of the most effective ways to overcome that.

If we could only convince people to step out of their bubble and look at other points of view from time to time. Anyone who checks out news sources outside their ideological comfort zone will see just how insulating relying on partisan sources can be. Most people don't have the time needed to review a wide range of sources, but just a little peaking in on the spectrum of opinions once in a while is a good way to minimize the risk of getting stuck in your bubble.
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26-04-2017, 03:22 PM
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
(18-04-2017 08:10 AM)Missiletowe Wrote:  I've always found that to be a curious question.

I mean, I believe in a standing military, the death penalty, gun ownership... So all my liberal friends think I'm a conservative.

I also believe in same sex marriage, abortion rights, legalizing marijuana, single payer healthcare... So all my conservative coworkers think I'm gay.
"Liberal" and "conservative" don't mean the same things now as they did 30, 50, or 100 years ago. Once upon a time it was not only possible, but reasonably common to have both liberal and conservative Democrats (look up Strom Thurmond or George Wallace), and both liberal and conservative Republicans (check out Nelson Rockefeller). It always cracks me up when I hear today's right-wingnuts refer to Democrats as "the Left". The party has drifted so far to the right that you could substitute 1970s era Republicans for them and most people wouldn't notice.

The two terms have become so distorted out of their original meanings -- and in effect turned into pejorative epithets -- that they are useless as political descriptions.

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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26-04-2017, 03:29 PM
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
(18-04-2017 10:49 AM)Emma Wrote:  but I'd think having a system in place is better than pure anarchy, right?

Anarchy is a system; it's just a system based on personal responsibility, rather than on the forlorn hope that whatever overlords we appoint will be benevolent.

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26-04-2017, 03:31 PM
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
(18-04-2017 10:52 AM)yakherder Wrote:  I spend my free time at the shooting range or teaching my oldest kid the basics of land navigation and foraging, but I voted Transhumanist because #cyborglivesmatter.

I was tempted to go Transhumanist, as well.
They were, after all, the only party that promised eternal life. Smile

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26-04-2017, 03:49 PM
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
(18-04-2017 11:03 AM)Vera Wrote:  Yeah, what I never could (and never will) understand is the use of "progressive" as an insult, as something negative.

As with "liberal" and "conservative", "progressive" meant something very different 100 years ago than it does today. Today it essentially means what "liberal" meant in the 1960s and 70s.

But when progressivism was becoming established as a socio-political movement in the US, in the late 19th-early 20th century, it was entwined with a lot of social and philosophical views that we now regard as questionable, to say the least: social Darwinism; Prohibition; scientific theology; institutional racism; eugenics; severely restricted immigration policies and "Americanization" programs; imposition of income tax; and others. Of course Progressives of that era did accomplish a deal of good, too -- antitrust laws; significant expansion of public education; support of organized labor. But still, that's a lot of negative baggage to carry.

I've never been quite sure why contemporary liberals chose to embrace the dusty old term "progressive", rather than creating something new and fresh, or -- in my view, better yet -- reclaiming "liberal" in it's true sense, rather than letting it be co-opted by the right for a cuss-word, which it has.

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26-04-2017, 03:55 PM
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
(18-04-2017 03:16 PM)MustangManda Wrote:  If I HAD to label myself, I'd say I'm just a moderate, but that's not really true either. I'm a registered Republican in California (closed primary state), although I "lean" more Democrat, have considered myself Libertarian in the past (although libertarians have kind of gone off the deep end IMO). The closest party to me would probably be the Green Party though as I'm pretty pro-environment.

I've been registered as "independent" for my entire voting life, but when I moved to Oregon even that was undermined on me. "Independent", in Oregon, means 'a member of the Oregon Independent Party'. My kind of 'independent' is described here as "politically unaffiliated".

You gotta watch your ass every minute, else they'll snatch it right out from under you. Dodgy

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26-04-2017, 03:57 PM
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
(26-04-2017 03:49 PM)Dr H Wrote:  I've never been quite sure why contemporary liberals chose to embrace the dusty old term "progressive", rather than creating something new and fresh, or -- in my view, better yet -- reclaiming "liberal" in it's true sense, rather than letting it be co-opted by the right for a cuss-word, which it has.

This from a person who embraces both "atheist" and "anarchist".

Facepalm
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26-04-2017, 03:58 PM
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
(19-04-2017 08:01 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  As a non-American I take issue with your categorisations.

As well you should. Wink

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26-04-2017, 04:06 PM
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
(26-04-2017 06:01 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  No, of course not. I'm saying people should hold themselves and others to higher standards for accuracy. Right now, it's like they're not even trying.

I'll give you an example. Before the election one of my sisters, who is a libertarian-leaning Republican, said to me, "I could never vote for Hillary Clinton because she is a felon." That was simply not true. Clinton had never even been indicted, let alone prosecuted and convicted, which means she was by definition not a felon. Yet my sister not only believed this, but repeated it and used it as an excuse to vote for Donald Trump.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. She should have said to herself, "Wait a minute. That makes no sense. Someone is trying to appeal to my prejudices." She should never have either believed it or repeated it, especially since she knew it was an insult to me personally as a Clinton supporter. My sister's and her husband's political biases are the reason we are currently not on speaking terms.

Atheists should understand this point especially. We are not trying to outlaw religions. We are encouraging people to think more clearly and be more accurate about religious ideas.

We could make slander and libel punishable offenses, even when they occur during political campaigns. Then couple that with the stipulation that anyone convicted of such an offence could not hold office.

That would, I think, clear out pretty much the entire government in a hurry. Smile

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Dr H

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26-04-2017, 04:09 PM
RE: Liberal? Conservative?
(26-04-2017 03:57 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(26-04-2017 03:49 PM)Dr H Wrote:  I've never been quite sure why contemporary liberals chose to embrace the dusty old term "progressive", rather than creating something new and fresh, or -- in my view, better yet -- reclaiming "liberal" in it's true sense, rather than letting it be co-opted by the right for a cuss-word, which it has.

This from a person who embraces both "atheist" and "anarchist".

Facepalm

Hey, I remember my roots, and acknowledge them. Wink

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