Libertarian Debate 2016
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02-06-2016, 10:25 AM
RE: Libertarian Debate 2016
Now I understand that Anerican libertarianism is a quite a bit more extreme than the Canadian version but the base ideals are the same. My freedom is mine. And my resources are mine.
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02-06-2016, 10:43 AM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2016 12:07 PM by Revenant77x.)
RE: Libertarian Debate 2016
(02-06-2016 09:54 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 09:27 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Libertarians are in the very best light Utterly Naive about the real world and in the worst light nearly sociopathic narcissists. They bitch about having to pay taxes even though those taxes helped them to get where they are and in a lot of cases the loudest cryers are the biggest leaches off the system. I got mine fuck everyone else is the rallying cry of that party.

What you seem unable to understand is that what I earned is mine. No one has the right to take it from me.

Classic Libertarian start, I made this with no help ignoring all the subsidies they received. A farmer in the US at least has tons of government subsidies not even including the public works they take advantage of such as roads schools and water systems, all of which the general public pay for through taxes.

(02-06-2016 09:54 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Your a farmer. Your crops are doing great.
Your neighbor is a farmer. His crops have failed. Maybe it's not his fault maybe it is. It doesn't really matter.
I come to your house and tell you I'm taking half of your crops to feed your neighbor.
That's your time and labour. And I can just take it.

Because this fantasy is what we are discussing. See above for all the things you are paying back with your taxes Mr Farmer.

(02-06-2016 09:54 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  I personally wouldn't need a guy to come to my door. I'll decide if my neighbour deserves my time and labour. As a guy with libertarian leanings I resent force but I ain't got a problem with sharing.

And this is the problem with "Let the Charities solve everything" stance why should you get to decide who receives help? Shouldn't you want everyone who needs help to be able to receive it? As to force that is a non sequitor since you are just changing who has the force and despite what you may think it does not get better it gets far far worse.

(02-06-2016 09:54 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  It's simple. I'll decide what I do with my resources.
Naive or narcissistic? No.

Completely Naive, ignoring reality to make a black and white stance. Never mind all the helping hands you have gotten over your life you got your fuck the other guy.

(02-06-2016 09:54 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Your resources can be taken and what's worse is that you've been brainwashed to believe it's fine and libertarians are naive?

No I understand we are in an interconnected system that benefits the whole and most of use have been given all sorts of government aid from the day we were born whether or not that aid was apparent. To pretend that I did everything with no help is being extremely naive or willfully ignorant.

(02-06-2016 09:54 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  You believe you are entitled to my resources and libertarians ant narcissistic?
Yeah....right..

No I believe we have all benefited from the system and should help to pay for it. That the yoke is set up with the ones most able to play shouldering a heavier load just makes sense.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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02-06-2016, 10:44 AM
RE: Libertarian Debate 2016
(02-06-2016 10:25 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Now I understand that Anerican libertarianism is a quite a bit more extreme than the Canadian version but the base ideals are the same. My freedom is mine. And my resources are mine.

You owe the society in which you live payment for services rendered. Drinking Beverage

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02-06-2016, 11:32 AM
RE: Libertarian Debate 2016
(02-06-2016 10:22 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 09:27 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Libertarians are in the very best light Utterly Naive about the real world and in the worst light nearly sociopathic narcissists. They bitch about having to pay taxes even though those taxes helped them to get where they are and in a lot of cases the loudest cryers are the biggest leaches off the system. I got mine fuck everyone else is the rallying cry of that party.

So what you're saying is George Washington and that ugly lot should have just shut the fuck up, and paid King George what he was due, eh?????

Somehow I don't think the American Revolution would have happened if they'd used the slogan "Pay your taxes with a smile"................

GW sure as shit made those Whiskey Libertarians pay up. Drinking Beverage

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

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02-06-2016, 11:34 AM
RE: Libertarian Debate 2016
(02-06-2016 10:22 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 09:27 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Libertarians are in the very best light Utterly Naive about the real world and in the worst light nearly sociopathic narcissists. They bitch about having to pay taxes even though those taxes helped them to get where they are and in a lot of cases the loudest cryers are the biggest leaches off the system. I got mine fuck everyone else is the rallying cry of that party.

So what you're saying is George Washington and that ugly lot should have just shut the fuck up, and paid King George what he was due, eh?????

Somehow I don't think the American Revolution would have happened if they'd used the slogan "Pay your taxes with a smile"................

Like it or not, the taxes on the colonies were imposed to pay for the defense of the colonies. The sticking point wasn't the taxes themselves, it was the taxes without representation. Drinking Beverage

Had King George acquiesced and actually provided the colonies with representation in the House of Commons and House of Lords, he most likely would have averted the American Revolution.

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02-06-2016, 11:38 AM
RE: Libertarian Debate 2016
(02-06-2016 10:43 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  That the yolk is set up with the ones most able to play shouldering a heavier load just makes sense.

I think you have egg on your face. Consider

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02-06-2016, 11:41 AM
RE: Libertarian Debate 2016
(02-06-2016 11:38 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 10:43 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  That the yolk is set up with the ones most able to play shouldering a heavier load just makes sense.

I think you have egg on your face. Consider

What, you mean you didn't notice the bit "the ones most able to play..."? Tongue

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02-06-2016, 12:06 PM
RE: Libertarian Debate 2016
(02-06-2016 11:41 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 11:38 AM)Chas Wrote:  I think you have egg on your face. Consider

What, you mean you didn't notice the bit "the ones most able to play..."? Tongue

I couldn't think of a good witticism. Weeping

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02-06-2016, 12:06 PM
RE: Libertarian Debate 2016
(02-06-2016 11:38 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 10:43 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  That the yolk is set up with the ones most able to play shouldering a heavier load just makes sense.

I think you have egg on your face. Consider

Damnit missed a stupid autocorrect.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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02-06-2016, 12:10 PM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2016 12:15 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Libertarian Debate 2016
(02-06-2016 10:25 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Now I understand that Anerican libertarianism is a quite a bit more extreme than the Canadian version but the base ideals are the same. My freedom is mine. And my resources are mine.


Who ensures that freedom? What protects that property and your right to it? How does Libertarian fetishism for personal property maintain and protect your rights?

Let me let you in on a little secret. It doesn't.

Let me tell you another. You only have as many rights as everyone else agrees you have.

Libertarianism doesn't protect your freedom. What happens if not everybody else wants to buy into independent neo-liberal anarchy? A pair teams up, now they're better off than an individual. Others see that happening. What else can they do? There's no force except what you alone can bring to bear, and you cannot force them to not pair up for their own advantage. If that pair can overpower you, they can take your stuff, because there is no overarching structure to otherwise prevent or deter them; such systems of deterrence are typically called governments. So you either stick to the not-so-agreed-upon 'rules' and maintain your disadvantage, or else you also create a team to match the other duo. Now everyone has partners, so if you want an advantage, you take it to the next level. Now you have gangs, tribes, villages, towns, cities, nations; collectivization is the inevitable outcome of a system that has no way of actually enforcing anything.

Our rights and freedoms are all byproducts of social contracts, the agreed upon rules that a society operates upon. This is why you only have as many rights and freedoms as everyone else agrees that you have. White people used to have the right to own black people, but they no longer have that right; because society collectively agreed that they no longer have that right, even though we had to use force to enact that change.

Rules without enforcement aren't rules, they're suggestions. Libertarianism has, at base, no means to enforce anything; and thus falls apart because it's nothing more than a series of suggestions, and not any sort of practical governance. All Libertarianism has is the masturbatory fantasy of a reality where everyone agrees to respect everyone else's freedom without the means to to prevent anyone from breaching that suggestion. The first person to breach that suggestion puts themselves at an immediate advantage, and everyone else who did not would be crippling their ability to compete.


In short, your freedom only matters insofar as everyone else agrees it does, and the same goes for your property rights and resources.

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