Lie and Cheat
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09-05-2013, 12:52 PM
RE: Lie and Cheat
(09-05-2013 12:36 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(09-05-2013 12:31 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  How do you feel about embarrassing a person in your charge? Do you think it somehow benefits the person you're intimidating or is it simply for your own aggrandizement?

I do think it benefits the person being embarrassed. Perhaps not immediately but it will cause them to think on their actions. I don't do it at their expense. I don't stand them up with a dunce cap. I take away their exam and ask them to leave. If they want to argue in front of their peers, that is their choice. I don't force the embarrassment upon them, they do that of their own accord, I just oblige.

Being smashed in the head with a ball bat will cause someone to think about their actions as well, but I don't think you'd recommend doing so.

How do you reason that the supposed benefit of embarrassing someone outweighs the negative affects it has?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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09-05-2013, 12:57 PM
RE: Lie and Cheat
(09-05-2013 12:52 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(09-05-2013 12:36 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I do think it benefits the person being embarrassed. Perhaps not immediately but it will cause them to think on their actions. I don't do it at their expense. I don't stand them up with a dunce cap. I take away their exam and ask them to leave. If they want to argue in front of their peers, that is their choice. I don't force the embarrassment upon them, they do that of their own accord, I just oblige.

Being smashed in the head with a ball bat will cause someone to think about their actions as well, but I don't think you'd recommend doing so.

How do you reason that the supposed benefit of embarrassing someone outweighs the negative affects it has?

Are you suggesting that their actions should be ignored?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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09-05-2013, 01:01 PM
RE: Lie and Cheat
(09-05-2013 12:52 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(09-05-2013 12:36 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I do think it benefits the person being embarrassed. Perhaps not immediately but it will cause them to think on their actions. I don't do it at their expense. I don't stand them up with a dunce cap. I take away their exam and ask them to leave. If they want to argue in front of their peers, that is their choice. I don't force the embarrassment upon them, they do that of their own accord, I just oblige.

Being smashed in the head with a ball bat will cause someone to think about their actions as well, but I don't think you'd recommend doing so.

How do you reason that the supposed benefit of embarrassing someone outweighs the negative affects it has?

Because physically assaulting someone is clearly the same as calling someone out for being a liar, a cheat, and a fraud?

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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09-05-2013, 01:02 PM
RE: Lie and Cheat
(09-05-2013 12:52 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Being smashed in the head with a ball bat will cause someone to think about their actions as well, but I don't think you'd recommend doing so.

How do you reason that the supposed benefit of embarrassing someone outweighs the negative affects it has?

So, someone is arrogant enough to think they can cheat and get something without any real effort, something that everyone else has actually worked to get, and when they are caught doing it, it is their feelings that should be considered?

Maybe the teacher should ask everyone else to leave the room and have tea and biscuits with the idiot who is too stupid to pass their exam and arrogant enough to believe that even if they are too stupid, they still deserve to pass?

Everyone is responsible for their own actions. If you are not ashamed to cheat, you shouldn't be ashamed to be caught cheating.

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09-05-2013, 01:21 PM
RE: Lie and Cheat
(09-05-2013 12:57 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(09-05-2013 12:52 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Being smashed in the head with a ball bat will cause someone to think about their actions as well, but I don't think you'd recommend doing so.

How do you reason that the supposed benefit of embarrassing someone outweighs the negative affects it has?

Are you suggesting that their actions should be ignored?

No I am not. I am suggesting that ridicule is not a valid means of education.


Quote: The Bearded Dude: Because physically assaulting someone is clearly the same as calling someone out for being a liar, a cheat, and a fraud?

There's a remarkable difference between acknowledging someone who has cheated and engaging in ridicule of them after the fact. Again, how do you reason that the supposed benefit of embarrassing someone outweighs the negative affects it has?

Quote: Vera: So, someone is arrogant enough to think they can cheat and get something without any real effort, something that everyone else has actually worked to get, and when they are caught doing it, it is their feelings that should be considered?

Maybe the teacher should ask everyone else to leave the room and have tea and biscuits with the idiot who is too stupid to pass their exam and arrogant enough to believe that even if they are too stupid, they still deserve to pass?

Everyone is responsible for their own actions.
If you are not ashamed to cheat, you shouldn't be ashamed to be caught cheating.

You're correct. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. A cheater pays for his actions through suffering a lower grade point or perhaps, complete failure of the class.

Being ridiculed is not a form of restitution and it does not benefit anyone. What it often accomplishes is animosity toward the person who ridicules in addition to causing undue anxiety in the victim.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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09-05-2013, 01:23 PM
RE: Lie and Cheat
(09-05-2013 01:21 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(09-05-2013 12:57 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Are you suggesting that their actions should be ignored?

No I am not. I am suggesting that ridicule is not a valid means of education.


Quote: The Bearded Dude: Because physically assaulting someone is clearly the same as calling someone out for being a liar, a cheat, and a fraud?

There's a remarkable difference between acknowledging someone who has cheated and engaging in ridicule of them after the fact. Again, how do you reason that the supposed benefit of embarrassing someone outweighs the negative affects it has?

Quote: Vera: So, someone is arrogant enough to think they can cheat and get something without any real effort, something that everyone else has actually worked to get, and when they are caught doing it, it is their feelings that should be considered?

Maybe the teacher should ask everyone else to leave the room and have tea and biscuits with the idiot who is too stupid to pass their exam and arrogant enough to believe that even if they are too stupid, they still deserve to pass?

Everyone is responsible for their own actions.
If you are not ashamed to cheat, you shouldn't be ashamed to be caught cheating.

You're correct. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. A cheater pays for his actions through suffering a lower grade point or perhaps, complete failure of the class.

Being ridiculed is not a form of restitution and it does not benefit anyone. What it often accomplishes is animosity toward the person who ridicules in addition to causing undue anxiety in the victim.

You're assuming I stood them up and verbally berated them to their peers for amusement. You're wrong. I already told you what I did. I called them out by taking their exam and asking them to leave. They started an argument in front of their peers even after I told them to leave, and I made sure to give better than I got.

They have a right to try and embarrass me and not I them?

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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09-05-2013, 02:53 PM
RE: Lie and Cheat
It's the social darwinism, of course. They're ashamed to have "done a wrong", so when it's called out, they attempt to conceal it. Like a baby quickly trying to hide the cookie in the toybox when you walk into the room. The lie is a natural reaction to having made a fault. Just as yelping in surprise is supposed to get other members of the tribe to investigate and possibly save you; the lie is supposed to "undo" a wrong that you've committed within the social group.

We're all still just dumb, instinct-driven apes. Whether we want to accept it or not. Drinking Beverage

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09-05-2013, 06:39 PM
RE: Lie and Cheat
(09-05-2013 01:23 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You're assuming I stood them up and verbally berated them to their peers for amusement. You're wrong. I already told you what I did. I called them out by taking their exam and asking them to leave. They started an argument in front of their peers even after I told them to leave, and I made sure to give better than I got.

They have a right to try and embarrass me and not I them?

I'm not assuming anything. I read what you wrote and based my questioning and commentary on that action.

You've even said again here that you made a point of embarrassing them to more of a degree than they had embarrassed or, angered you. So please understand, I get that. I understand that you didn't go off and pick a fight with a student. I never said you did, assumed you did or implied that you did.

I asked a series of questions relating to the events as you explained them and you've yet to address the last one. That question was, how do you reason that the supposed benefit of embarrassing someone outweighs the negative affects it has?

As for you having a right to do what yo did... of course you had a right to do it. We have the right to do any number of things but that fact is irrelevant to the nature of the act.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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09-05-2013, 06:46 PM
RE: Lie and Cheat
(09-05-2013 02:53 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  It's the social darwinism, of course. They're ashamed to have "done a wrong", so when it's called out, they attempt to conceal it. Like a baby quickly trying to hide the cookie in the toybox when you walk into the room. The lie is a natural reaction to having made a fault. Just as yelping in surprise is supposed to get other members of the tribe to investigate and possibly save you; the lie is supposed to "undo" a wrong that you've committed within the social group.

We're all still just dumb, instinct-driven apes. Whether we want to accept it or not. Drinking Beverage

That's not true. Children who aren't subjected to arbitrary and abusive authorities have no problem with admitting to doing wrong.

It is only after a child has been harshly punished for minor infractions and/or for things he didn't even know were wrong that he will begin to hide his actions.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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09-05-2013, 07:14 PM
RE: Lie and Cheat
(09-05-2013 06:46 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(09-05-2013 02:53 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  It's the social darwinism, of course. They're ashamed to have "done a wrong", so when it's called out, they attempt to conceal it. Like a baby quickly trying to hide the cookie in the toybox when you walk into the room. The lie is a natural reaction to having made a fault. Just as yelping in surprise is supposed to get other members of the tribe to investigate and possibly save you; the lie is supposed to "undo" a wrong that you've committed within the social group.

We're all still just dumb, instinct-driven apes. Whether we want to accept it or not. Drinking Beverage

That's not true. Children who aren't subjected to arbitrary and abusive authorities have no problem with admitting to doing wrong.

It is only after a child has been harshly punished for minor infractions and/or for things he didn't even know were wrong that he will begin to hide his actions.

Sources or it didn't happen. Drinking Beverage

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
Ridi, Pagliaccio, sul tuo amore infranto! Ridi del duol, che t'avvelena il cor!
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