Lie and Cheat
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09-05-2013, 08:10 PM
RE: Lie and Cheat
(09-05-2013 07:14 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(09-05-2013 06:46 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  That's not true. Children who aren't subjected to arbitrary and abusive authorities have no problem with admitting to doing wrong.

It is only after a child has been harshly punished for minor infractions and/or for things he didn't even know were wrong that he will begin to hide his actions.

Sources or it didn't happen. Drinking Beverage


"
Why Children Lie
By Lawrence Kutner, Ph.D

Lying is a skill all children learn. It is a tool for avoiding blame or punishment,~"
http://psychcentral.com/lib/2007/why-children-lie/

"Fear is a common motivator for lying. Consider the child who lies because she fears that her mother would "blow up" at her, or that dad would take privileges away,~" "Second, parents may need to accept that their children lie because they are afraid of their parents' temperament. It is not surprising that constantly angry, shouting, rigid or restrictive parents often encounter compulsively lying children."
http://webhome.idirect.com/~readon/lies.html

The fix?

"Since it is difficult for parents to control the lies that children will encounter outside the home, it is more useful to start eliminating lies from within the home. Make telling the truth a priority both in instruction and by example."

"Punishing a lie when it is motivated by fear, modelling or overprediction tends to be ineffective in the long run. Seek the deeper motivation for the lie and work at the source rather than the symptom."

"Parents are often surprised how soft messages excel in impact over hard messages."

"When all is said and done, we want our children to love the truth, not to fear it; and to hate lies, not merely the punishment that lying brings."

http://webhome.idirect.com/~readon/lies.html

This is really an easy thing to reason out though...

If your boss is prone to firing people for low sales volume, will you lie about leads?
If he is prone to offering additional help when sales drop, will you go to him for that help or just lie and say you have plenty of good leads?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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09-05-2013, 09:09 PM (This post was last modified: 09-05-2013 09:13 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: Lie and Cheat
(09-05-2013 08:10 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(09-05-2013 07:14 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  Sources or it didn't happen. Drinking Beverage


"
Why Children Lie
By Lawrence Kutner, Ph.D

Lying is a skill all children learn. It is a tool for avoiding blame or punishment,~"
http://psychcentral.com/lib/2007/why-children-lie/

"Fear is a common motivator for lying. Consider the child who lies because she fears that her mother would "blow up" at her, or that dad would take privileges away,~" "Second, parents may need to accept that their children lie because they are afraid of their parents' temperament. It is not surprising that constantly angry, shouting, rigid or restrictive parents often encounter compulsively lying children."
http://webhome.idirect.com/~readon/lies.html

The fix?

"Since it is difficult for parents to control the lies that children will encounter outside the home, it is more useful to start eliminating lies from within the home. Make telling the truth a priority both in instruction and by example."

"Punishing a lie when it is motivated by fear, modelling or overprediction tends to be ineffective in the long run. Seek the deeper motivation for the lie and work at the source rather than the symptom."

"Parents are often surprised how soft messages excel in impact over hard messages."

"When all is said and done, we want our children to love the truth, not to fear it; and to hate lies, not merely the punishment that lying brings."

http://webhome.idirect.com/~readon/lies.html

This is really an easy thing to reason out though...

If your boss is prone to firing people for low sales volume, will you lie about leads?
If he is prone to offering additional help when sales drop, will you go to him for that help or just lie and say you have plenty of good leads?

What age group are we talking about here? Elementary school? High School? College? OK, just reread OP, University age.

I would think they're lucky not to be expelled or at the very minimum fail the class. These are now functioning adults, the best lesson they may learn from TBD's class is the consequences of cheating and lying. Life lessons are never pleasant. It's all part of becoming an adult.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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09-05-2013, 09:48 PM
RE: Lie and Cheat
(09-05-2013 09:09 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(09-05-2013 08:10 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  "
Why Children Lie
By Lawrence Kutner, Ph.D

Lying is a skill all children learn. It is a tool for avoiding blame or punishment,~"
http://psychcentral.com/lib/2007/why-children-lie/

"Fear is a common motivator for lying. Consider the child who lies because she fears that her mother would "blow up" at her, or that dad would take privileges away,~" "Second, parents may need to accept that their children lie because they are afraid of their parents' temperament. It is not surprising that constantly angry, shouting, rigid or restrictive parents often encounter compulsively lying children."
http://webhome.idirect.com/~readon/lies.html

The fix?

"Since it is difficult for parents to control the lies that children will encounter outside the home, it is more useful to start eliminating lies from within the home. Make telling the truth a priority both in instruction and by example."

"Punishing a lie when it is motivated by fear, modelling or overprediction tends to be ineffective in the long run. Seek the deeper motivation for the lie and work at the source rather than the symptom."

"Parents are often surprised how soft messages excel in impact over hard messages."

"When all is said and done, we want our children to love the truth, not to fear it; and to hate lies, not merely the punishment that lying brings."

http://webhome.idirect.com/~readon/lies.html

This is really an easy thing to reason out though...

If your boss is prone to firing people for low sales volume, will you lie about leads?
If he is prone to offering additional help when sales drop, will you go to him for that help or just lie and say you have plenty of good leads?

What age group are we talking about here? Elementary school? High School? College? OK, just reread OP, University age.

I would think they're lucky not to be expelled or at the very minimum fail the class. These are now functioning adults, the best lesson they may learn from TBD's class is the consequences of cheating and lying. Life lessons are never pleasant. It's all part of becoming an adult.

Age is largely irrelevant, given that personality is established at around seven. Thus, a seven year old who has learned to lie in order to avoid harsh punishment will become a twenty year old who lies through force of habit.

Personality can change but that requires serious effort and more often than not, therapy, so not too many people's personalities change remarkably during their lives.

In the example given above, the consequences are poor grades and perhaps, failing a course, which would result in a additional financial burdens.

Being ridiculed is an unnecessary and vengeful addition to the actual consequences. In reality, a student who cheats on a paper and lies about it only harms himself and possibly his parents or whomever financed his education. Any perceived harm to the professor is just that... perceived.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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10-05-2013, 07:39 AM
RE: Lie and Cheat
The ability to cheat effectively and efficiently is one of the greatest skills with which schools equip us.

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10-05-2013, 08:45 AM
RE: Lie and Cheat
(09-05-2013 06:39 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(09-05-2013 01:23 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You're assuming I stood them up and verbally berated them to their peers for amusement. You're wrong. I already told you what I did. I called them out by taking their exam and asking them to leave. They started an argument in front of their peers even after I told them to leave, and I made sure to give better than I got.

They have a right to try and embarrass me and not I them?

I'm not assuming anything. I read what you wrote and based my questioning and commentary on that action.

You've even said again here that you made a point of embarrassing them to more of a degree than they had embarrassed or, angered you. So please understand, I get that. I understand that you didn't go off and pick a fight with a student. I never said you did, assumed you did or implied that you did.

I asked a series of questions relating to the events as you explained them and you've yet to address the last one. That question was, how do you reason that the supposed benefit of embarrassing someone outweighs the negative affects it has?

As for you having a right to do what yo did... of course you had a right to do it. We have the right to do any number of things but that fact is irrelevant to the nature of the act.

The negative effects are what? They are embarrassed. Is this detrimental to their career as a student? I would argue that this is largely irrelevant given the impact that cheating has on their career as a student, it doesn't help them.

And you assumed the embarrassment was intentional on my part. I didn't do anything other than take away an exam and ask them to leave. They embarrassed themselves. I allowed it. They attempted to embarrass me. I did not allow it.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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10-05-2013, 08:56 AM
RE: Lie and Cheat
(10-05-2013 08:45 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The negative effects are what? They are embarrassed. Is this detrimental to their career as a student? I would argue that this is largely irrelevant given the impact that cheating has on their career as a student, it doesn't help them.

And you assumed the embarrassment was intentional on my part. I didn't do anything other than take away an exam and ask them to leave. They embarrassed themselves. I allowed it. They attempted to embarrass me. I did not allow it.

No, I assumed that the first thing you said is what you actually did. I also assumed intellectual honesty in a discussion about the matter.

That was my fault. I won't let it happen again.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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10-05-2013, 08:57 AM
RE: Lie and Cheat
(10-05-2013 08:56 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(10-05-2013 08:45 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The negative effects are what? They are embarrassed. Is this detrimental to their career as a student? I would argue that this is largely irrelevant given the impact that cheating has on their career as a student, it doesn't help them.

And you assumed the embarrassment was intentional on my part. I didn't do anything other than take away an exam and ask them to leave. They embarrassed themselves. I allowed it. They attempted to embarrass me. I did not allow it.

No, I assumed that the first thing you said is what you actually did. I also assumed intellectual honesty in a discussion about the matter.

That was my fault. I won't let it happen again.

The first thing I said about it was "You know, like calling them out in front of their peers."

How is that equivalent to what you were accusing me of?

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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10-05-2013, 09:06 AM
RE: Lie and Cheat
(10-05-2013 08:57 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-05-2013 08:56 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  No, I assumed that the first thing you said is what you actually did. I also assumed intellectual honesty in a discussion about the matter.

That was my fault. I won't let it happen again.

The first thing I said about it was "You know, like calling them out in front of their peers."

How is that equivalent to what you were accusing me of?

I didn't accuse you of anything...

"I have made sure to make it even more embarrassing at times."

That's what caused me to engage you.

"I don't force the embarrassment upon them, they do that of their own accord, I just oblige."

"They started an argument in front of their peers even after I told them to leave, and I made sure to give better than I got."


All of those are your words and that's all I've responded to. I didn't make any of those words up and I didn't add anything at all to them.

You said them and I asked you how you justified the actions you described. Clearly, you don't think there is a problem with anything you claim to have done and, clearly, nothing I've said has caused you any pause.

So I'm done.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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10-05-2013, 09:21 AM
RE: Lie and Cheat
(10-05-2013 09:06 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(10-05-2013 08:57 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The first thing I said about it was "You know, like calling them out in front of their peers."

How is that equivalent to what you were accusing me of?

I didn't accuse you of anything...

"I have made sure to make it even more embarrassing at times."

That's what caused me to engage you.

"I don't force the embarrassment upon them, they do that of their own accord, I just oblige."

"They started an argument in front of their peers even after I told them to leave, and I made sure to give better than I got."


All of those are your words and that's all I've responded to. I didn't make any of those words up and I didn't add anything at all to them.

You said them and I asked you how you justified the actions you described. Clearly, you don't think there is a problem with anything you claim to have done and, clearly, nothing I've said has caused you any pause.

So I'm done.

Because I still don't see your point. My actions were a reaction to their's.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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10-05-2013, 05:53 PM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2013 06:11 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Lie and Cheat
(09-05-2013 10:16 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I have caught students cheating multiple times, and the knee-jerk reaction they all seem to have is to lie. I can understand the knee-jerk reaction and the honest student will come to their senses and own up to it.

You're a teacher. This is a teaching moment where you get to educate them on the first rule of holes. Thumbsup

(09-05-2013 10:46 AM)Vera Wrote:  And cheating is simply humiliating. At least to me Big Grin

It's worse. It's giving up. It's admitting defeat. It's tipping over your King.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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