Life as ancestor simulation.
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10-10-2014, 10:57 PM
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
One good question my husband posed: was I asking if creating the simulations was morally ethical, or was I asking whether trying to create artificial intelligence itself is morally ethical?

I have to wonder if perhaps these questions stop us from creating artificial intelligences that are indistinguishable from ours, thus meaning we don't create these simulations, making our reality... Reality. Consider

I hope that the world turns, and things get better. But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that, even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you, I love you. With all my heart, I love you. - V for Vendetta
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10-10-2014, 10:59 PM
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
(10-10-2014 10:55 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(10-10-2014 10:49 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  I mean, we don't submit people to the plague now just to see how it plays out.

I think that's actually been done, sad to say. Hooray for humanity.

But if it's simulation, who is to say what is being felt by whom? (is that grammatically correct? That one always confused me)

To that I say, if we manage to create simulations with people who think, feel, and react like any regular person we see in our reality today.. Does it matter if we aren't aware of what exactly they are thinking or feeling?

For comparison, imagine our world is a simulation. Does that make our feelings any less important than we think they are?

I hope that the world turns, and things get better. But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that, even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you, I love you. With all my heart, I love you. - V for Vendetta
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10-10-2014, 11:01 PM
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
(10-10-2014 10:57 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  One good question my husband posed: was I asking if creating the simulations was morally ethical, or was I asking whether trying to create artificial intelligence itself is morally ethical?

But is intelligence necessarily sentience? Are there feels, or is it just coded simulation.....

Consider But then again, what are we? I think I'm seeing the conundrum...

Edit: We're posting past eachother, I gotcha.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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10-10-2014, 11:03 PM
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
(10-10-2014 11:01 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(10-10-2014 10:57 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  One good question my husband posed: was I asking if creating the simulations was morally ethical, or was I asking whether trying to create artificial intelligence itself is morally ethical?

But is intelligence necessarily sentience? Are there feels, or is it just coded simulation.....

Consider But then again, what are we? I think I'm seeing the conundrum...

I would assume that even if it is coded simulation, their reactions to certain situation would "feel" like feels... If that makes sense?

The "what are we": yeah, this is what we kept running into, what I think is actually the meat of the issue: what makes us "real"?

That brought me back to my original thought on the matter. "I think therefor I am". I may be a simulation, but I certainly think I'm real, I have feels, which leads me to believe the simulations would as well.

I hope that the world turns, and things get better. But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that, even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you, I love you. With all my heart, I love you. - V for Vendetta
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10-10-2014, 11:06 PM
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
Honestly, I think it's something so far outside of our experience that we can't have an answer. It's something we may one day face, but I don't know that there's a situation to compare it to that has any moral relevancy to anything we could know.

On a theological level, it occurs to me that this is exactly why the concept of god becomes so absurd to those of us that ponder it that way. It's essentially the same idea.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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10-10-2014, 11:07 PM
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
(10-10-2014 11:06 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Honestly, I think it's something so far outside of our experience that we can't have an answer. It's something we may one day face, but I don't know that there's a situation to compare it to that has any moral relevancy to anything we could know.

On a theological level, it occurs to me that this is exactly why the concept of god becomes so absurd to those of us that ponder it that way. It's essentially the same idea.

Maybe there is a god, but he's some nerd with a computer, and an excellent programming ability Big Grin

I hope that the world turns, and things get better. But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that, even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you, I love you. With all my heart, I love you. - V for Vendetta
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10-10-2014, 11:10 PM
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
(10-10-2014 11:07 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  
(10-10-2014 11:06 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Honestly, I think it's something so far outside of our experience that we can't have an answer. It's something we may one day face, but I don't know that there's a situation to compare it to that has any moral relevancy to anything we could know.

On a theological level, it occurs to me that this is exactly why the concept of god becomes so absurd to those of us that ponder it that way. It's essentially the same idea.

Maybe there is a god, but he's some nerd with a computer, and an excellent programming ability Big Grin

And a narcissistic disregard for consequences. Rolleyes

But we digress.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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10-10-2014, 11:11 PM
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
(10-10-2014 10:57 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(10-10-2014 10:52 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Accept it? Hell it's been this coder's gut instinct for going on close to 4 decades now. Gut instinct is not always "right" but it's never been "wrong". Big Grin

So you're saying that you suspect a higher order?

I am suggesting that I am the higher order. ... Fool. Tongue

#sigh
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10-10-2014, 11:13 PM
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
(10-10-2014 11:10 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(10-10-2014 11:07 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  Maybe there is a god, but he's some nerd with a computer, and an excellent programming ability Big Grin

And a narcissistic disregard for consequences. Rolleyes

But we digress.

Laugh out load Hug that was fun, thanks for gettin philosophical with me Big Grin

I hope that the world turns, and things get better. But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that, even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you, I love you. With all my heart, I love you. - V for Vendetta
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10-10-2014, 11:14 PM
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
(10-10-2014 10:49 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  Aw come on guys, no one wants to get philosophical with me? Had a lovely discussion about this with my husband. Want to know what you guys think too.

Is it morally ethical to create these simulations that are indistinguishable from "reality" in the eyes of the simulations? Especially if we are knowingly submitting them to a plague simulation.

I mean, we don't submit people to the plague now just to see how it plays out. What's the difference when creating a simulation?

What makes us "real" and not the simulations if they are indistinguishable? If the people that we create in these simulations have wants, fears, hopes, emotions identical to ours?


It depends. Are the units within the simulation conscious? Are they independent? Do they exist oblivious to the fact that they are in a simulation? I think that once you reach a certain point, it would be unethical and immoral to subject your AI to such stimulus. At the point when they reach true sentience, they need to be given the same rights, freedoms, and protections we would grant to other sentient organic life.

Then again, I did save the Geth in Mass Effect 3.





And yes, I did cry when Legion sacrificed himself.

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