Life as ancestor simulation.
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10-10-2014, 11:16 PM
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
(10-10-2014 11:11 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(10-10-2014 10:57 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  So you're saying that you suspect a higher order?

I am suggesting that I am the higher order. ... Fool. Tongue

Of course, but who's higher order?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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10-10-2014, 11:22 PM
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
(10-10-2014 11:14 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-10-2014 10:49 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  Aw come on guys, no one wants to get philosophical with me? Had a lovely discussion about this with my husband. Want to know what you guys think too.

Is it morally ethical to create these simulations that are indistinguishable from "reality" in the eyes of the simulations? Especially if we are knowingly submitting them to a plague simulation.

I mean, we don't submit people to the plague now just to see how it plays out. What's the difference when creating a simulation?

What makes us "real" and not the simulations if they are indistinguishable? If the people that we create in these simulations have wants, fears, hopes, emotions identical to ours?


It depends. Are the units within the simulation conscious? Are they independent? Do they exist oblivious to the fact that they are in a simulation? I think that once you reach a certain point, it would be unethical and immoral to subject your AI to such stimulus. At the point when they reach true sentience, they need to be given the same rights, freedoms, and protections we would grant to other sentient organic life.

Then again, I did save the Geth in Mass Effect 3.





And yes, I did cry when Legion sacrificed himself.

I'm working under the assumption that if it is statistically likely that we are a simulation, that the simulations that we create would feel just as real as we do.

I agree it isn't morally ethical to submit such simulations to things that would harm them, or to treat them any differently than we would our fellow humans. The problem is.... I don't know of others will feel the same.

Which then leads me to... Is it morally ethical to even create consciousness on a level like that?

I hope that the world turns, and things get better. But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that, even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you, I love you. With all my heart, I love you. - V for Vendetta
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10-10-2014, 11:23 PM
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
(10-10-2014 11:14 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It depends. Are the units within the simulation conscious? Are they independent? Do they exist oblivious to the fact that they are in a simulation?

That's what I'm asking. But then again we can ask the same questions about life on earth and the different points of sentience of animals among us. At what point do we regard the level of intelligence worthy of our own, or is there any animal among us that we do?

How do we compare the way we view other animals' intelligence to that of what we can create through simulation? How could we know if it's even comparable?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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11-10-2014, 05:06 AM
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
Shostak Wrote:(1) The technological level of real societies never gets much farther than 21st century Homo sapiens. The aliens (not to mention our descendants) all self-destruct before developing the compute power that would allow ancestor simulations. If this is the way of things, then maybe you're real. But you'll also have to expect an imminent end to human society. Sell your real estate.

(2) A second possibility: Maybe lots of societies do develop the ability to make simulations, but for some weird reason, they don't. They're not interested. They're never interested. Personally, I find this hypothesis harder to swallow than a cookie with thumb tacks.

The alternatives to simulation don't sound very convincing.

Is he even trying? Dodgy
-OR-
(3) Ours is the first intelligence to arise in this universe.
-OR-
(4) That level of AI is not actually possible.
-OR-
(5) ...

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-10-2014, 06:52 AM
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
I like the way Matt Dillahunty talks about it; if we are in a simulation, or brains in a vat, or whatever it doesn't make any practical difference. I have to deal with what I perceive to be reality. I can't decide to be Neo and choose to ignore inconvenient portions of the world that I (appear to) interact with.

Now if there is ever proof that there is some kind of 'outer' reality and a red pill to get you there then the story may change.

(10-10-2014 11:07 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  Maybe there is a god, but he's some nerd with a computer, and an excellent programming ability Big Grin

That would certainly make a lot more sense than most other god claims. This life often seems more like it was designed by behavioral scientists than a 'loving god'.

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11-10-2014, 08:03 AM
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
Consciousness was the topic of last week's Philosophy meetup.

The analogy to AI came up and the ethics (e.g. clone's rights) and identity questions.

From the link:
Quote:There are academics who say you don't have a life. You're just an app.

This is actually almost my view (even though I'm only half way through Dennett's book) that consciousness is an App ... but that does not mean I don't have hardware on which to run it.

Cool

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11-10-2014, 08:22 AM
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
(11-10-2014 08:03 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Consciousness was the topic of last week's Philosophy meetup.

The analogy to AI came up and the ethics (e.g. clone's rights) and identity questions.

From the link:
Quote:There are academics who say you don't have a life. You're just an app.

This is actually almost my view (even though I'm only half way through Dennett's book) that consciousness is an App ... but that does not mean I don't have hardware on which to run it.

Cool

And that hardware has other interesting 'features'. Yes

Like being plug-compatible, ...

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-10-2014, 08:39 AM
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
(11-10-2014 08:22 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(11-10-2014 08:03 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Consciousness was the topic of last week's Philosophy meetup.

The analogy to AI came up and the ethics (e.g. clone's rights) and identity questions.

From the link:

This is actually almost my view (even though I'm only half way through Dennett's book) that consciousness is an App ... but that does not mean I don't have hardware on which to run it.

Cool

And that hardware has other interesting 'features'. Yes

Like being plug-compatible, ...

Exactly.

Darwin be praised.

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11-10-2014, 08:50 AM
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
It's a pleasing scenario, the only problem is unless there was a designed exit out or flaw in the system, there's no way to prove it would be a simulation you are in.

That's the flaw of films like Dark City, The Matrix, and Truman Show... though I guess most people wouldn't be entertained by a movie of a person in a simulation who can't figure out he's in a simulation the whole time.... then again, I can think of some good films of that manner where the person just goes insane and permanently sedates themselves because they never can figure it out.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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11-10-2014, 02:38 PM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2014 03:15 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Life as ancestor simulation.
(11-10-2014 08:03 AM)DLJ Wrote:  This is actually almost my view (even though I'm only half way through Dennett's book) that consciousness is an App ... but that does not mean I don't have hardware on which to run it.

A self-programming simulation even. Big Grin

This paragraph reminded me of Borges. "As a second question, what about the guys (terrestrial or otherwise) who built the sim we're living in. Who's to say that they're not a sim? And if they are, what about the guys who built them?"

"With relief, with humiliation, with terror, he understood that he also was an illusion, that someone else was dreaming him."

#sigh
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