Life is all about pleasure
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31-10-2014, 05:48 AM
RE: Life is all about pleasure
(30-10-2014 07:33 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  
(30-10-2014 07:33 PM)pablo Wrote:  It doesn't belong anywhere. Tongue

Valid point. Thumbsup

Then why hasn't this sock puppet been banned? Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-10-2014, 06:35 AM
RE: Life is all about pleasure
(30-10-2014 07:13 PM)MattMVS7 Wrote:  VERY BRIEF SUMMARY

In your dreams. Laughat

(30-10-2014 07:13 PM)MattMVS7 Wrote:  Edit: [b]VERY BRIEF SUMMARY: Any personal meanings we create in life are all neutral as they all come from the exact same functions of our brains that create nothing but neutral words, sounds, images, etc.

No. You have not demonstrated your point, and it does not follow. Assertion with no evidence, it's also a non-sequitur.

(30-10-2014 07:13 PM)MattMVS7 Wrote:  For example, create any sound, letter, image, etc. in your mind that provokes no emotional response and is bland to you.

Non-sequitur. Does not follow. Improper English.
Try taking
1. A critical thinking class.
2. An English class

Don't post any more crap until you have done 1 and 2.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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31-10-2014, 07:07 AM
RE: Life is all about pleasure
I would like to add one last thing here which is that the only difference between a thought and such that has meaning to us as opposed to one that doesn't (one that is neutral) would just be the fact that with one meaning, you are experiencing emotion while with another you are not. So it's only our emotions themselves that have the meaning of "good" or "bad." As in terms of one thought that has meaning to us as opposed to another that doesn't, the only difference between these two thoughts is that one sends an emotional signal to the brain while the other doesn't--that is all.
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31-10-2014, 07:15 AM
RE: Life is all about pleasure
(31-10-2014 07:07 AM)MattMVS7 Wrote:  I would like to add one last thing here which is that the only difference between a thought and such that has meaning to us as opposed to one that doesn't (one that is neutral) would just be the fact that with one meaning, you are experiencing emotion while with another you are not. So it's only our emotions themselves that have the meaning of "good" or "bad." As in terms of one thought that has meaning to us as opposed to another that doesn't, the only difference between these two thoughts is that one sends an emotional signal to the brain while the other doesn't--that is all.

No.
What goes on in people's brains is the result of INDIVIDUAL learned experiences.
People can learn to hold values which are unrelated to emotional states.
You're making unsupported and unfounded generalizations about unrelated concepts.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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31-10-2014, 09:09 AM
RE: Life is all about pleasure
(30-10-2014 09:50 PM)firecheetah Wrote:  hey guys new member, just wanted to say that ol' Matt here posted the same exact thing over on our forum. i googled a chunk of text out of curiosity and lo and behold

anyway i dont really have anything to add except: lol can you believe this guy? yikes!

He has posted the same thing here numerous times as well. It's his one and only theme, and he seems unable to say it in less than 10,000 words. Even what he calls a "summary" is way too long for me to waste my time on. As soon as I saw the thread title, I knew exactly who it was and what he was blathering about. Life is too short for this shit.
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31-10-2014, 04:02 PM (This post was last modified: 31-10-2014 04:25 PM by MattMVS7.)
RE: Life is all about pleasure
(31-10-2014 07:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 07:07 AM)MattMVS7 Wrote:  I would like to add one last thing here which is that the only difference between a thought and such that has meaning to us as opposed to one that doesn't (one that is neutral) would just be the fact that with one meaning, you are experiencing emotion while with another you are not. So it's only our emotions themselves that have the meaning of "good" or "bad." As in terms of one thought that has meaning to us as opposed to another that doesn't, the only difference between these two thoughts is that one sends an emotional signal to the brain while the other doesn't--that is all.

No.
What goes on in people's brains is the result of INDIVIDUAL learned experiences.
People can learn to hold values which are unrelated to emotional states.
You're making unsupported and unfounded generalizations about unrelated concepts.

But based on everything I've said, why wouldn't all those values held by people be neutral since they all are the exact same functioning of the areas of the brain that come up with neutral sounds, images, letters, etc. in the first place? Didn't I just explain here in terms of science how all our values are neutral?
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31-10-2014, 04:22 PM
RE: Life is all about pleasure
(31-10-2014 09:09 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(30-10-2014 09:50 PM)firecheetah Wrote:  hey guys new member, just wanted to say that ol' Matt here posted the same exact thing over on our forum. i googled a chunk of text out of curiosity and lo and behold

anyway i dont really have anything to add except: lol can you believe this guy? yikes!

He has posted the same thing here numerous times as well. It's his one and only theme, and he seems unable to say it in less than 10,000 words. Even what he calls a "summary" is way too long for me to waste my time on. As soon as I saw the thread title, I knew exactly who it was and what he was blathering about. Life is too short for this shit.

Totally agree!
Walls of text scream "watch me talk to myself" or "i love my own voice". Nothing really requires this level of explanation. Biology text books use fewer words, finance manuals use less terminology.
Rule of thumb is if its more than a couple of paragraphs and its not a personal story...it's probably bullshit.

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31-10-2014, 04:53 PM
RE: Life is all about pleasure
(30-10-2014 07:13 PM)MattMVS7 Wrote:  Edit: VERY BRIEF SUMMARY: Any personal meanings we create in life are all neutral as they all come from the exact same functions of our brains that create nothing but neutral words, sounds, images, etc. For example, create any sound, letter, image, etc. in your mind that provokes no emotional response and is bland to you. Therefore, all other meanings we create in life are the same in that sense because, again, they are all the same functioning in our brains. So that makes our own created meanings all neutral as well. These created meanings are no different than the creation of neutral words, sounds, images, etc. because there is no difference between any personal meanings we create in life as opposed to neutral words, sounds, images, etc. because they are the exact same things. Our personal meanings we create in life may make us do good things in life, but they are all still neutral anyway. Only our pleasure itself that arises from any personal meanings we create in life is good (positive) and is the only thing that makes our lives good and worth living and you would be delusional to somehow think that, without your ability to experience pleasure, that your life is still somehow good and worth living. Also, pleasure, in of itself, is a good experience and we do not need any created meanings in life (which would be knowledge, thoughts, etc.) to tell us that it is good. So if you were happy, but had no knowledge or thoughts whatsoever, your happiness would still feel good to you despite the fact that you are completely unaware of what happiness is and the fact that you are unaware of the word "good" and what it even means. Therefore, any created meanings in life by themselves do not tell us that anything is good (they are not the activating of the pleasure centers of our brains which is the only thing that gives us the "good" signal). The same thing goes for depression. Depression in of itself is a bad experience and we do not need any knowledge or thoughts to tell us that it is bad. Therefore, even everything else in life and even your own attitude is neutral and you are free to harm and take advantage of others as long as it gives you the most pleasure in life. However, I would never harm others despite my own personal beliefs because this is not who I am at all.

Therefore, even everything else in life and even your own attitude is neutral and you are free to harm and take advantage of others as long as it gives you the most pleasure in life. However, I would never harm others despite my own personal beliefs because this is not who I am at all. Also, you are not in the minds of other people anyway. So it's only your own pleasure in life that makes your life good and worth living. Not you helping others and giving them pleasure despite your own absence of pleasure. Finally, the only difference between a thought and such that has meaning to us as opposed to one that doesn't (one that is neutral) would just be the fact that with one meaning, you are experiencing emotion while with another you are not. So it's only our emotions themselves that have the meaning of "good" or "bad." As in terms of one thought that has meaning to us as opposed to another that doesn't, the only difference between these two thoughts is that one sends an emotional signal to the brain while the other doesn't--that is all.


I have made a different and much more convincing argument for pleasure being the only greatest thing in life (that actually has different things than what was written before). This is a personal issue and I wish to discuss it. I am going to post a summary here just in case everything I'm saying is too long for you to read and that you only have the time and patience to read the summary (which is in bolded words below). But everything I'm saying is very important and I would recommend that you read everything in this post anyway. Also, if you are thinking that even my summary itself is too long, then I'm afraid it must be this long in order to get my convincing point across. If I were to just say a brief statement such as that "Pleasure is the only good thing in life and that without it, then you would be delusional to think that your life is still worth living," then there would be plenty of people who would be able to argue against that. Even if I added another thing onto that quoted message such as that "All our thoughts are neutral and don't make our lives worth living or make us good people because only pleasure is what makes things "good," then even that people would be able to argue against. Therefore, I must explain everything in detail as to why I have these beliefs to the point where it is convincing to you just like how it is with me. My goal here is to argue my points to where they cannot be refuted in order to fully convince you if possible.

One more very important thing I would like to add before I present my summary here is that I am going to share and talk about my issues (my beliefs here) regardless of whether it offends you or not. I will NOT be the only one in this world to be left with my own unique negative and self-defeating viewpoints (which are viewpoints that I don't think anyone or too many people even have because they think that you are still a person with positive value with a worthwhile life and not a neutral biological "robot" with a worthless life despite your depression and emotional numbness). Also, for you to be offended about what I'm about to say here would mean that you are not a full compassionate person in that you do not have compassion towards my issues and wish to help me out. Imagine if there was a person who was very depressed and said "I am very depressed because I feel that you are all worthless and inferior human beings and I wish to discuss this issue," would you then make this person feel even more depressed and rejected by scorning upon him/her and being offended by what he/she has to say? Or would you instead not scorn upon this person and try and help him/her out? Therefore, I am now going to present my summary here and freely speak my mind:

Summary: First off, in addition to everything I'm saying below to try and convince you all I can that pleasure is the only good thing in life and that nothing else in life or about you is anything good at all, I am going state another thing (my main convincing argument) as to how pleasure in of itself is the only thing that is "good." Knowledge and thoughts can tell us that things are good and bad, but only in the sense that they are nothing more than neutral words/imagery/sound which is what makes knowledge and thoughts nothing more than neutral things. For example, create any shape, letter, or sound in your mind that has no meaning to you whatsoever and does not evoke any emotional response. Therefore, any meanings we create in life are all the same in that sense because they, too, are nothing more than just imagery, words, sounds, etc. And that goes for all other things in life besides pleasure because they, too, are all neutral things (except for feelings of pain and depression which are bad in of themselves). So all meanings we create in life are neutral because they all come from the exact same functions of the brain that create these neutral words, sounds, imagery, etc. in the first place (such as what you've created in your mind in that demonstrated example). So it's all basically the exact same experience since these are all the exact same functions of the brain. Whereas, emotions such as rage and pleasure are completely different functions of the brain as they are completely different experiences. These emotions, in of themselves, can never be neutral and are always positive or negative. Pleasure will always be positive and feelings such as rage or depression will always be negative regardless of what meanings you attribute to them. Pleasure will always be good even if it is obtained from things such as harming and/or taking advantage of others while depression will always be bad even if you were to use your depression to help others and do great things in your life.

Hedonism is a very popular and convincing belief well supported by science that states that pleasure is the only good thing in life and that nothing else is anything good at all (though my version of hedonism involves you harming others as long as it brings you the most pleasure in life):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonism

So all our knowledge, thoughts, personal meanings, and everyone and everything else in life to us are all neutral (neither good or bad) and pleasure is the only good thing in life while pain and depression in of themselves are the only bad things in life (but not any type of thought/meanings you might have associated with your pain and/or depression because, again, they are still neutral thoughts/meanings and are nothing more than neutral words, sounds, imagery, etc.). It does not matter if you were to help others, do great things in your life, etc. Everything from your own perspective in life will be neutral if you didn't have pleasure. All our thoughts, knowledge, intelligence, etc. are all neutral and can only make us do things such as performing activities and such only in the sense of being close to something like a neutral biological robot performing neutral biological "robotic" tasks because what defines a robot would be having no emotions. Meaning, that if you have lost one of your emotions (which would be pleasure), then you would be less human and more towards being a biological robot.

Also, I am going state another important thing as to how pleasure in of itself is the only thing that is "good." If you were to eat something that tastes good, it would be your pleasure itself from that which makes it taste good. But if you were to have no pleasure whatsoever and are not allowed to have any pleasure whatsoever (due to severe depression and/or severe anhedonia which is emotional numbness), then even if you were to eat this tasty food with just thoughts alone such as that "This is good food," these thoughts and such alone will not make the food taste good. Just like how our thoughts and such alone cannot make food taste good if we didn't have pleasure, our thoughts and such alone also can't make anything else in life anything good from our own perspectives without our pleasure whether it be helping others, doing great things in your life, etc. Also, there are such people with severe anhedonia (emotional numbness) and/or severe depression in which food does not taste good to them at all.

So you would have the right to take advantage and harm others as long as it makes you happy in life because, again, you are not in the minds of other people who feel pain and despair. Instead, you are only in your own mind with your own perspective and, therefore, your own pleasure is the only thing that makes you perceive "good." Again, without your own pleasure, then helping others and actually doing great things in your life would be nothing good from your own perspective since all thoughts and meanings you create are all neutral and you would be delusional to think that doing great things in life and helping others somehow matters without your own pleasure. It would matter to those other people and they would feel pleasure from you helping them and such, but even you knowing that it matters to those other people despite your own absence of pleasure would not matter to you at all since, again, it's only your own pleasure that makes you perceive "good" and it's your own brain in life and you are not in the minds of those other people.

So how much something matters to you and how much value, worth, and beauty it has to you (how good it is to you) all solely depends on your own level of pleasure in life. If you have no pleasure, then life itself as well as everything and everyone will have no value, worth, and beauty whatsoever to you and will not matter to you at all no matter what you think otherwise. If you have little pleasure, then things will only matter little to you. But if you have a lot of pleasure, then things will matter greatly to you and the things and actions that give you the most pleasure would matter the most to you (again, even if it is harming or taking advantage of others). Again, you mattering to others and them having value and worth towards you and viewing you as a beautiful person does NOT give you or your life value, worth, and beauty because, once again, you will be and forever will be in your own mind and it will only be your own pleasure that gives you these things. Other people cannot somehow magically "project" their mindset and their value, worth, and beauty towards you onto you. Also, I said that you are free to harm and take advantage of others as long as it brings you the most pleasure in life. However, I would never take advantage or harm others despite my beliefs in pleasure being the only greatest thing in life because I am not that type of person at all.


Now I am actually going to make a more convincing argument for hedonism and how pleasure is the only good thing in life. First off, we all know that depression is a very bad experience. So we can obviously conclude that depression itself is a bad thing. It doesn't matter whether you perceive your depression as being a good thing due to you helping others who also have depression and other problems because the depression in of itself is a bad thing. In other words, any positive meanings you have attributed to your depression are meanings that stand by themselves. They do not become infused with your depression and make your depression something good. Why? Because depression itself is not any thought or meaning whatsoever. It is where the pleasure activity of your brain is shut down. Thoughts and meanings are activity of our brain. So it would make no sense for you to say that your depression in of itself contains positive meaning since, again, depression is the "shutting down" of the pleasure activity of our brains while thoughts and meanings are the activity of completely separate parts of the brain. So it doesn't matter whether your depression made you more empathetic towards others, more intelligent/creative, or anything else because only the benefits themselves from your depression are good and this still does not make your depression itself anything good. The fact is, depression is a bad experience no matter what and nothing can make it anything good. Also, as for those benefits I just mentioned or any other benefits for that matter, you can achieve these benefits just as good as (and even better) under the right circumstances through living a nice happy life of little to no depression and little to no suffering anyway. Actually, as I am about to explain, pleasure is the only good thing in life and anything else in life (whether they be benefits or anything else) are nothing good at all.

Any meanings we create in life can either be positive, negative, or neutral. If any meaning causes you to feel depressed, then that is a negative meaning. If any meaning causes you to feel good (pleasure), then that is a positive meaning. And if any meaning doesn't cause you to feel anything, then that meaning is neutral. Neutral meanings are not considered meanings at all since they are nothing but thoughts and such. Actually, all meanings that we create in life are all neutral meanings and it's only the emotions themselves that arise from them that are considered to be positive or negative. Imagine if you had no emotions at all and have found meaning in your life despite this. Without our emotions, then all meanings we create (whether they are meanings that involve you wanting to harm others or even meanings of wanting to help people), these meanings are all the same thing because they are still nothing more than knowledge, thoughts, etc (they are all the activating of the same parts of the brain responsible for intelligence, memory, knowledge, etc.). The only difference would be that, with one meaning, you are harming others while, with the other meaning, you are helping others. Although that may seem like all the difference in the world to you, it would only be all the difference in the world to these other people (providing that these people are able to experience positive or negative emotions towards you helping or harming them). The fact is, even if you did create the meaning which is that it does make all the difference in the world to you for not choosing to harm others and in helping others despite your own absence of emotions, this is still nothing more than just a meaning and all meanings are the same in that they are nothing more than knowledge, thoughts, etc. So, again, despite the fact that it would matter to you if you have chosen to harm vs help others, the fact is that it doesn't matter to you at all and it only matters to those other people and to think that this does matter to you would be delusional. I don't care how strongly you think to yourself such as that "I'm not the one who matters and I am only going to put my focus on other people because they are the ones who matter," that quoted message is yet another personal meaning you have created in life (towards others). But, again, since meanings are nothing but thoughts and knowledge, you choosing to solely help and focus on others is actually nothing good from your own perspective and does not matter to you at all and to think it is good and matters to you would be delusional.

So if someone were to have the areas of their brain stimulated that allowed him/her to feel nothing but pleasure while this person were to witness horrible things such as his/her family being killed, this person might report that this was the worst thing despite his/her experience of nothing but pure pleasure. But the fact is, this person only thinks that this was something negative for him/her to witness when, in fact, this person's thinking was all completely neutral (neither good or bad) and it was only the pleasure itself that is good. As I said before, pleasure is a good experience in of itself and we do not need any created meanings (thoughts, intelligence, etc.) to tell us that it is good. Same thing with depression because it is a bad experience in of itself and we do not need anything else to tell us that it is bad.

Also, we don't even need pain or suffering in life in order to experience pleasure. I will bring up my example of this right here:

"Some people would also say that without pain and suffering, then there can be no pleasure. But this would be false. A baby can be born into this world without having yet experienced pain or suffering and immediately feel happiness and love being in the arms of a mother. This baby would be able to then experience full happiness and love in life having no future pain or suffering as well. The only way for him/her to experience less pleasure in life is for him/her to develop a sense of value towards having struggles and suffering in life and then having less value towards living a life of pure pleasure with no struggles and suffering as a result. That, or just being bored living such a nice happy life which are both things that would never happen to me since I find great value living a perfect happy life. As a matter of fact, babies can even experience pleasure being in the womb without any pain or suffering ever happening to them yet."

Now I'm quite sure there are depressed people who have had severe moments of depression out of the blue for no reason (perhaps due to a chemical imbalance) which altered their thinking in that nothing is good in life. Therefore, since a lack of pleasure (depression as well as anhedonia) is what obviously takes away our perception of anything being good in life, pleasure is the only good thing in life and to somehow think that your life is better despite your depression and/or anhedonia for moving forward, doing great things in your life, and in helping others--this would be delusional. I don't care how good you think your life is despite your lack of pleasure, it would all be neutral (through anhedonia) or negative (through depression) without feelings of pleasure in your life. As for things like value, worth, and beauty, if these are words that can only mean anything good and can't mean anything negative or neutral (which would mean that only pleasure itself would be considered value, worth, and beauty), then having less pleasure in life due to either anhedonia (emotional numbness) or depression would render you having less value, worth, and beauty in life. Others may have value and worth towards you and view you as a beautiful person. But if you had no pleasure, then you actually wouldn't have any value, worth, or beauty and it would be delusional for these people to think you do. There would be nothing good about you at all or anything else good in life because pleasure is the only good thing there is and your life would be worthless. Meaning, people who are happy with no depression and/or anhedonia are the better and superior people who live worthwhile lives compared to those who have depression and/or anhedonia or are less happy in life.

Some intelligent people and scientists say that life is meaningless and that there there is no objective meaning in life. That things like "good" and "bad" are completely subjective and that we all create our own subjective meanings in life. But based on everything I've said here, there is an objective meaning in life which is that pleasure is the only good thing in life (since it is the only thing that is the "good" message in our brains) and that everything else about you as a person and everything else in life is nothing good at all.

Now one might ask something such as that if this life were truly meaningless and just a bunch of chemicals and molecules, then how is it that feelings of pleasure feel good and that depression feels bad just from the feelings alone even despite not having any knowledge or intelligence? And that if this life were truly meaningless, then even these feelings themselves would be nothing more than atoms, molecules, etc. that cannot feel "good" or "bad." Also, you might say that if life were truly meaningless, then intelligibility would devolve into absurd nonsense, and nothing you are describing would have any significance or meaning-it literally would not be communicating any information. The answer to that would be that these feelings just are and that how we are able to make sense of things is just is. These feelings are good or bad in of themselves no matter what. It would be no different than looking at a piece of metal and asking: "If this piece of metal was truly nothing but a bunch of atoms and molecules, then how is it that it is even metal to begin with?" The answer to this question would also be that it just is. It's a scientific fact that the different functioning of atoms and molecules yields different things and different types of chemicals and materials. Therefore, it is a scientific fact that the functioning of the atoms and molecules in our brains is what yielded an experience that is actually "goodness" in of itself that does not need any knowledge or intelligence whatsoever to deem it as being "good" (which is obviously the experience of pleasure). Pleasure does not even need to create any "good" value (which would be thoughts, knowledge, etc.) in order for us to feel that it is good because, again, it is "good value" in of itself. Pleasure is a form of "good" in of itself that, again, does not need any created values (through intelligence or anything else) in order to make it good. As for intelligence and how we are able to makes sense of things, this is something that was also yielded by the functioning of the atoms and molecules in our brains just like how other things and other materials and chemicals are yielded due to the different functioning of their atoms, molecules, etc.

Now evolution has designed us to make sense of things and that intelligence and making sense of things is just something used for our survival and does not have a "higher" purpose in life. Same thing with pleasure. However, since pleasure in of itself is what encourages our survival in life, then that means that pleasure in of itself is purely good (because encouraged survival is the equivalent to something being "good" in terms of evolution in this case) and we don't need any intelligence or thoughts to encourage our survival in life. Intelligence and thoughts don't "encourage" our survival and pursuit of rewards (they don't make us feel or perceive anything as being good because even messages such as "good" alone without our pleasure are still nothing more than neutral messages). They are all neutral and can only make us do things such as performing activities and such only in the sense of being something like a neutral biological robot if it weren't for our emotions.

In conclusion, I am going to present some answered quotes below that are very important and you should read them because they might answer any questions you have:

Quote:Yes, this is the conclusion that naturalism requires - nihilism. And it is itself absurd and meaningless. You are correctly seeing that the naturalist is necessarily reduced to saying that everything just is. But you are not noticing the definite implication that flows from this. If everything just is, then nothing means anything. Absolutely everything 'just is.' Everything is arbitrary, fungible, and of equal--which is to say no--meaning or significance. That includes the words you and I are thinking and saying, the concepts and things they attempt to describe, feeling, pleasure, awareness, knowledge, experience - everything. And this destroys itself. Literally. Your words, thoughts and ideas cannot possibly have any meaning - you are fooling yourself with an illusion - you have no place to stand to make distinctions, draw conclusions, weigh evidence, reason, understanding, anything. It may seem like you do, but you have already ceded that all this stuff just is, and that's it.

Now what makes you think that if everything is "just is," that feelings of pleasure would not feel like anything good at all and that feelings of depression would not feel bad? What if pleasure feeling good is, in fact, something that is "just is?" Same thing for depression. What if depression feeling bad is also something that is "just is?"

Quote:1. Doing well and doing badly are opposite 2. Opposites can't be compresent in the same thing (e.g. I can't be both healthy and sick at the same time). 3. So doing well and doing badly can't be compresent in the same thing. 4. An appetite (e.g. thirst) is painful. 5. Satisfying an appetite (e.g. drinking when thirsty) is pleasant. 6. When we satisfy an appetite we experience both pleasure and pain at the same time. 7. So pleasure and pain can be compresent in the same thing. 8. So feeling pleasure and feeling pain are not the same as doing well and doing badly.

If you had a cold and were 80% from being over it, then wouldn't that mean that you would be both 80% healthy and 20% sick? Therefore, couldn't you be both healthy and sick at the same time? Also, if you had full pleasure in life, but experienced physical pain at the same time, then wouldn't you be considered to be "emotionally well," but also "not doing well" just in terms of your physical misery? But if you somehow wanted to combined the pleasure and pain by, for example, saying that if you have 100% pleasure and 30% pain, then that would mean that you are doing 70% well overall (since 100% minus 30% equals 70%).

Now if being "well" is defined by having no pain, despair, and/or lack of pleasure whatsoever and having full pleasure in life (just like completely being over a cold), then as long as you have pain, despair, and/or lack of pleasure, then you are not doing well and you would still be defined as being "sick" (or still having a "cold"). But if you have full pleasure in life with no pain and/or despair, then you are doing well.

Quote:1. In satisfying an appetite pleasure and pain cease simultaneously. 2. Good and bad things don't cease simultaneously. 3. So pleasure and pain are different from what is good and bad.

How so? If there was a war between good people and bad people and there was a time bomb placed in the battlefield that killed both all the good and bad people, then couldn't we say that both good and bad things cease simultaneously? This argument can also hold for natural disasters since these things kill both good and bad things/people simultaneously all the time.

Quote:1. Good people are good because of the presence of good things in them (and bad because of the presence of bad things). 2. In many situations, cowards experience pleasure and pain to the same degree as brave people. 3. In many situations, fools experience pleasure and pain to the same degree as intelligent people. 3. So if pleasure = the good, and pain = the bad, then the cowardly and stupid are as good as the intelligent and brave. 4. That implies that there is no real difference between good and bad people. They are equally good and bad—which is absurd.

Based on everything I've said about pleasure in of itself being the only good thing in life and pain and despair only being the bad things in of themselves and everything else being neutral, then it is not absurd to say that, when a person is feeling depressed, that he/she has negative value and when he/she feels pleasure, that he/she has positive value.

Could you be a bit more succinct, or find a publisherRolleyes
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31-10-2014, 06:05 PM
RE: Life is all about pleasure
(31-10-2014 04:53 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(30-10-2014 07:13 PM)MattMVS7 Wrote:  Edit: VERY BRIEF SUMMARY: Any personal meanings we create in life are all neutral as they all come from the exact same functions of our brains that create nothing but neutral words, sounds, images, etc. For example, create any sound, letter, image, etc. in your mind that provokes no emotional response and is bland to you. Therefore, all other meanings we create in life are the same in that sense because, again, they are all the same functioning in our brains. So that makes our own created meanings all neutral as well. These created meanings are no different than the creation of neutral words, sounds, images, etc. because there is no difference between any personal meanings we create in life as opposed to neutral words, sounds, images, etc. because they are the exact same things. Our personal meanings we create in life may make us do good things in life, but they are all still neutral anyway. Only our pleasure itself that arises from any personal meanings we create in life is good (positive) and is the only thing that makes our lives good and worth living and you would be delusional to somehow think that, without your ability to experience pleasure, that your life is still somehow good and worth living. Also, pleasure, in of itself, is a good experience and we do not need any created meanings in life (which would be knowledge, thoughts, etc.) to tell us that it is good. So if you were happy, but had no knowledge or thoughts whatsoever, your happiness would still feel good to you despite the fact that you are completely unaware of what happiness is and the fact that you are unaware of the word "good" and what it even means. Therefore, any created meanings in life by themselves do not tell us that anything is good (they are not the activating of the pleasure centers of our brains which is the only thing that gives us the "good" signal). The same thing goes for depression. Depression in of itself is a bad experience and we do not need any knowledge or thoughts to tell us that it is bad. Therefore, even everything else in life and even your own attitude is neutral and you are free to harm and take advantage of others as long as it gives you the most pleasure in life. However, I would never harm others despite my own personal beliefs because this is not who I am at all.

Therefore, even everything else in life and even your own attitude is neutral and you are free to harm and take advantage of others as long as it gives you the most pleasure in life. However, I would never harm others despite my own personal beliefs because this is not who I am at all. Also, you are not in the minds of other people anyway. So it's only your own pleasure in life that makes your life good and worth living. Not you helping others and giving them pleasure despite your own absence of pleasure. Finally, the only difference between a thought and such that has meaning to us as opposed to one that doesn't (one that is neutral) would just be the fact that with one meaning, you are experiencing emotion while with another you are not. So it's only our emotions themselves that have the meaning of "good" or "bad." As in terms of one thought that has meaning to us as opposed to another that doesn't, the only difference between these two thoughts is that one sends an emotional signal to the brain while the other doesn't--that is all.


I have made a different and much more convincing argument for pleasure being the only greatest thing in life (that actually has different things than what was written before). This is a personal issue and I wish to discuss it. I am going to post a summary here just in case everything I'm saying is too long for you to read and that you only have the time and patience to read the summary (which is in bolded words below). But everything I'm saying is very important and I would recommend that you read everything in this post anyway. Also, if you are thinking that even my summary itself is too long, then I'm afraid it must be this long in order to get my convincing point across. If I were to just say a brief statement such as that "Pleasure is the only good thing in life and that without it, then you would be delusional to think that your life is still worth living," then there would be plenty of people who would be able to argue against that. Even if I added another thing onto that quoted message such as that "All our thoughts are neutral and don't make our lives worth living or make us good people because only pleasure is what makes things "good," then even that people would be able to argue against. Therefore, I must explain everything in detail as to why I have these beliefs to the point where it is convincing to you just like how it is with me. My goal here is to argue my points to where they cannot be refuted in order to fully convince you if possible.

One more very important thing I would like to add before I present my summary here is that I am going to share and talk about my issues (my beliefs here) regardless of whether it offends you or not. I will NOT be the only one in this world to be left with my own unique negative and self-defeating viewpoints (which are viewpoints that I don't think anyone or too many people even have because they think that you are still a person with positive value with a worthwhile life and not a neutral biological "robot" with a worthless life despite your depression and emotional numbness). Also, for you to be offended about what I'm about to say here would mean that you are not a full compassionate person in that you do not have compassion towards my issues and wish to help me out. Imagine if there was a person who was very depressed and said "I am very depressed because I feel that you are all worthless and inferior human beings and I wish to discuss this issue," would you then make this person feel even more depressed and rejected by scorning upon him/her and being offended by what he/she has to say? Or would you instead not scorn upon this person and try and help him/her out? Therefore, I am now going to present my summary here and freely speak my mind:

Summary: First off, in addition to everything I'm saying below to try and convince you all I can that pleasure is the only good thing in life and that nothing else in life or about you is anything good at all, I am going state another thing (my main convincing argument) as to how pleasure in of itself is the only thing that is "good." Knowledge and thoughts can tell us that things are good and bad, but only in the sense that they are nothing more than neutral words/imagery/sound which is what makes knowledge and thoughts nothing more than neutral things. For example, create any shape, letter, or sound in your mind that has no meaning to you whatsoever and does not evoke any emotional response. Therefore, any meanings we create in life are all the same in that sense because they, too, are nothing more than just imagery, words, sounds, etc. And that goes for all other things in life besides pleasure because they, too, are all neutral things (except for feelings of pain and depression which are bad in of themselves). So all meanings we create in life are neutral because they all come from the exact same functions of the brain that create these neutral words, sounds, imagery, etc. in the first place (such as what you've created in your mind in that demonstrated example). So it's all basically the exact same experience since these are all the exact same functions of the brain. Whereas, emotions such as rage and pleasure are completely different functions of the brain as they are completely different experiences. These emotions, in of themselves, can never be neutral and are always positive or negative. Pleasure will always be positive and feelings such as rage or depression will always be negative regardless of what meanings you attribute to them. Pleasure will always be good even if it is obtained from things such as harming and/or taking advantage of others while depression will always be bad even if you were to use your depression to help others and do great things in your life.

Hedonism is a very popular and convincing belief well supported by science that states that pleasure is the only good thing in life and that nothing else is anything good at all (though my version of hedonism involves you harming others as long as it brings you the most pleasure in life):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonism

So all our knowledge, thoughts, personal meanings, and everyone and everything else in life to us are all neutral (neither good or bad) and pleasure is the only good thing in life while pain and depression in of themselves are the only bad things in life (but not any type of thought/meanings you might have associated with your pain and/or depression because, again, they are still neutral thoughts/meanings and are nothing more than neutral words, sounds, imagery, etc.). It does not matter if you were to help others, do great things in your life, etc. Everything from your own perspective in life will be neutral if you didn't have pleasure. All our thoughts, knowledge, intelligence, etc. are all neutral and can only make us do things such as performing activities and such only in the sense of being close to something like a neutral biological robot performing neutral biological "robotic" tasks because what defines a robot would be having no emotions. Meaning, that if you have lost one of your emotions (which would be pleasure), then you would be less human and more towards being a biological robot.

Also, I am going state another important thing as to how pleasure in of itself is the only thing that is "good." If you were to eat something that tastes good, it would be your pleasure itself from that which makes it taste good. But if you were to have no pleasure whatsoever and are not allowed to have any pleasure whatsoever (due to severe depression and/or severe anhedonia which is emotional numbness), then even if you were to eat this tasty food with just thoughts alone such as that "This is good food," these thoughts and such alone will not make the food taste good. Just like how our thoughts and such alone cannot make food taste good if we didn't have pleasure, our thoughts and such alone also can't make anything else in life anything good from our own perspectives without our pleasure whether it be helping others, doing great things in your life, etc. Also, there are such people with severe anhedonia (emotional numbness) and/or severe depression in which food does not taste good to them at all.

So you would have the right to take advantage and harm others as long as it makes you happy in life because, again, you are not in the minds of other people who feel pain and despair. Instead, you are only in your own mind with your own perspective and, therefore, your own pleasure is the only thing that makes you perceive "good." Again, without your own pleasure, then helping others and actually doing great things in your life would be nothing good from your own perspective since all thoughts and meanings you create are all neutral and you would be delusional to think that doing great things in life and helping others somehow matters without your own pleasure. It would matter to those other people and they would feel pleasure from you helping them and such, but even you knowing that it matters to those other people despite your own absence of pleasure would not matter to you at all since, again, it's only your own pleasure that makes you perceive "good" and it's your own brain in life and you are not in the minds of those other people.

So how much something matters to you and how much value, worth, and beauty it has to you (how good it is to you) all solely depends on your own level of pleasure in life. If you have no pleasure, then life itself as well as everything and everyone will have no value, worth, and beauty whatsoever to you and will not matter to you at all no matter what you think otherwise. If you have little pleasure, then things will only matter little to you. But if you have a lot of pleasure, then things will matter greatly to you and the things and actions that give you the most pleasure would matter the most to you (again, even if it is harming or taking advantage of others). Again, you mattering to others and them having value and worth towards you and viewing you as a beautiful person does NOT give you or your life value, worth, and beauty because, once again, you will be and forever will be in your own mind and it will only be your own pleasure that gives you these things. Other people cannot somehow magically "project" their mindset and their value, worth, and beauty towards you onto you. Also, I said that you are free to harm and take advantage of others as long as it brings you the most pleasure in life. However, I would never take advantage or harm others despite my beliefs in pleasure being the only greatest thing in life because I am not that type of person at all.


Now I am actually going to make a more convincing argument for hedonism and how pleasure is the only good thing in life. First off, we all know that depression is a very bad experience. So we can obviously conclude that depression itself is a bad thing. It doesn't matter whether you perceive your depression as being a good thing due to you helping others who also have depression and other problems because the depression in of itself is a bad thing. In other words, any positive meanings you have attributed to your depression are meanings that stand by themselves. They do not become infused with your depression and make your depression something good. Why? Because depression itself is not any thought or meaning whatsoever. It is where the pleasure activity of your brain is shut down. Thoughts and meanings are activity of our brain. So it would make no sense for you to say that your depression in of itself contains positive meaning since, again, depression is the "shutting down" of the pleasure activity of our brains while thoughts and meanings are the activity of completely separate parts of the brain. So it doesn't matter whether your depression made you more empathetic towards others, more intelligent/creative, or anything else because only the benefits themselves from your depression are good and this still does not make your depression itself anything good. The fact is, depression is a bad experience no matter what and nothing can make it anything good. Also, as for those benefits I just mentioned or any other benefits for that matter, you can achieve these benefits just as good as (and even better) under the right circumstances through living a nice happy life of little to no depression and little to no suffering anyway. Actually, as I am about to explain, pleasure is the only good thing in life and anything else in life (whether they be benefits or anything else) are nothing good at all.

Any meanings we create in life can either be positive, negative, or neutral. If any meaning causes you to feel depressed, then that is a negative meaning. If any meaning causes you to feel good (pleasure), then that is a positive meaning. And if any meaning doesn't cause you to feel anything, then that meaning is neutral. Neutral meanings are not considered meanings at all since they are nothing but thoughts and such. Actually, all meanings that we create in life are all neutral meanings and it's only the emotions themselves that arise from them that are considered to be positive or negative. Imagine if you had no emotions at all and have found meaning in your life despite this. Without our emotions, then all meanings we create (whether they are meanings that involve you wanting to harm others or even meanings of wanting to help people), these meanings are all the same thing because they are still nothing more than knowledge, thoughts, etc (they are all the activating of the same parts of the brain responsible for intelligence, memory, knowledge, etc.). The only difference would be that, with one meaning, you are harming others while, with the other meaning, you are helping others. Although that may seem like all the difference in the world to you, it would only be all the difference in the world to these other people (providing that these people are able to experience positive or negative emotions towards you helping or harming them). The fact is, even if you did create the meaning which is that it does make all the difference in the world to you for not choosing to harm others and in helping others despite your own absence of emotions, this is still nothing more than just a meaning and all meanings are the same in that they are nothing more than knowledge, thoughts, etc. So, again, despite the fact that it would matter to you if you have chosen to harm vs help others, the fact is that it doesn't matter to you at all and it only matters to those other people and to think that this does matter to you would be delusional. I don't care how strongly you think to yourself such as that "I'm not the one who matters and I am only going to put my focus on other people because they are the ones who matter," that quoted message is yet another personal meaning you have created in life (towards others). But, again, since meanings are nothing but thoughts and knowledge, you choosing to solely help and focus on others is actually nothing good from your own perspective and does not matter to you at all and to think it is good and matters to you would be delusional.

So if someone were to have the areas of their brain stimulated that allowed him/her to feel nothing but pleasure while this person were to witness horrible things such as his/her family being killed, this person might report that this was the worst thing despite his/her experience of nothing but pure pleasure. But the fact is, this person only thinks that this was something negative for him/her to witness when, in fact, this person's thinking was all completely neutral (neither good or bad) and it was only the pleasure itself that is good. As I said before, pleasure is a good experience in of itself and we do not need any created meanings (thoughts, intelligence, etc.) to tell us that it is good. Same thing with depression because it is a bad experience in of itself and we do not need anything else to tell us that it is bad.

Also, we don't even need pain or suffering in life in order to experience pleasure. I will bring up my example of this right here:

"Some people would also say that without pain and suffering, then there can be no pleasure. But this would be false. A baby can be born into this world without having yet experienced pain or suffering and immediately feel happiness and love being in the arms of a mother. This baby would be able to then experience full happiness and love in life having no future pain or suffering as well. The only way for him/her to experience less pleasure in life is for him/her to develop a sense of value towards having struggles and suffering in life and then having less value towards living a life of pure pleasure with no struggles and suffering as a result. That, or just being bored living such a nice happy life which are both things that would never happen to me since I find great value living a perfect happy life. As a matter of fact, babies can even experience pleasure being in the womb without any pain or suffering ever happening to them yet."

Now I'm quite sure there are depressed people who have had severe moments of depression out of the blue for no reason (perhaps due to a chemical imbalance) which altered their thinking in that nothing is good in life. Therefore, since a lack of pleasure (depression as well as anhedonia) is what obviously takes away our perception of anything being good in life, pleasure is the only good thing in life and to somehow think that your life is better despite your depression and/or anhedonia for moving forward, doing great things in your life, and in helping others--this would be delusional. I don't care how good you think your life is despite your lack of pleasure, it would all be neutral (through anhedonia) or negative (through depression) without feelings of pleasure in your life. As for things like value, worth, and beauty, if these are words that can only mean anything good and can't mean anything negative or neutral (which would mean that only pleasure itself would be considered value, worth, and beauty), then having less pleasure in life due to either anhedonia (emotional numbness) or depression would render you having less value, worth, and beauty in life. Others may have value and worth towards you and view you as a beautiful person. But if you had no pleasure, then you actually wouldn't have any value, worth, or beauty and it would be delusional for these people to think you do. There would be nothing good about you at all or anything else good in life because pleasure is the only good thing there is and your life would be worthless. Meaning, people who are happy with no depression and/or anhedonia are the better and superior people who live worthwhile lives compared to those who have depression and/or anhedonia or are less happy in life.

Some intelligent people and scientists say that life is meaningless and that there there is no objective meaning in life. That things like "good" and "bad" are completely subjective and that we all create our own subjective meanings in life. But based on everything I've said here, there is an objective meaning in life which is that pleasure is the only good thing in life (since it is the only thing that is the "good" message in our brains) and that everything else about you as a person and everything else in life is nothing good at all.

Now one might ask something such as that if this life were truly meaningless and just a bunch of chemicals and molecules, then how is it that feelings of pleasure feel good and that depression feels bad just from the feelings alone even despite not having any knowledge or intelligence? And that if this life were truly meaningless, then even these feelings themselves would be nothing more than atoms, molecules, etc. that cannot feel "good" or "bad." Also, you might say that if life were truly meaningless, then intelligibility would devolve into absurd nonsense, and nothing you are describing would have any significance or meaning-it literally would not be communicating any information. The answer to that would be that these feelings just are and that how we are able to make sense of things is just is. These feelings are good or bad in of themselves no matter what. It would be no different than looking at a piece of metal and asking: "If this piece of metal was truly nothing but a bunch of atoms and molecules, then how is it that it is even metal to begin with?" The answer to this question would also be that it just is. It's a scientific fact that the different functioning of atoms and molecules yields different things and different types of chemicals and materials. Therefore, it is a scientific fact that the functioning of the atoms and molecules in our brains is what yielded an experience that is actually "goodness" in of itself that does not need any knowledge or intelligence whatsoever to deem it as being "good" (which is obviously the experience of pleasure). Pleasure does not even need to create any "good" value (which would be thoughts, knowledge, etc.) in order for us to feel that it is good because, again, it is "good value" in of itself. Pleasure is a form of "good" in of itself that, again, does not need any created values (through intelligence or anything else) in order to make it good. As for intelligence and how we are able to makes sense of things, this is something that was also yielded by the functioning of the atoms and molecules in our brains just like how other things and other materials and chemicals are yielded due to the different functioning of their atoms, molecules, etc.

Now evolution has designed us to make sense of things and that intelligence and making sense of things is just something used for our survival and does not have a "higher" purpose in life. Same thing with pleasure. However, since pleasure in of itself is what encourages our survival in life, then that means that pleasure in of itself is purely good (because encouraged survival is the equivalent to something being "good" in terms of evolution in this case) and we don't need any intelligence or thoughts to encourage our survival in life. Intelligence and thoughts don't "encourage" our survival and pursuit of rewards (they don't make us feel or perceive anything as being good because even messages such as "good" alone without our pleasure are still nothing more than neutral messages). They are all neutral and can only make us do things such as performing activities and such only in the sense of being something like a neutral biological robot if it weren't for our emotions.

In conclusion, I am going to present some answered quotes below that are very important and you should read them because they might answer any questions you have:


Now what makes you think that if everything is "just is," that feelings of pleasure would not feel like anything good at all and that feelings of depression would not feel bad? What if pleasure feeling good is, in fact, something that is "just is?" Same thing for depression. What if depression feeling bad is also something that is "just is?"


If you had a cold and were 80% from being over it, then wouldn't that mean that you would be both 80% healthy and 20% sick? Therefore, couldn't you be both healthy and sick at the same time? Also, if you had full pleasure in life, but experienced physical pain at the same time, then wouldn't you be considered to be "emotionally well," but also "not doing well" just in terms of your physical misery? But if you somehow wanted to combined the pleasure and pain by, for example, saying that if you have 100% pleasure and 30% pain, then that would mean that you are doing 70% well overall (since 100% minus 30% equals 70%).

Now if being "well" is defined by having no pain, despair, and/or lack of pleasure whatsoever and having full pleasure in life (just like completely being over a cold), then as long as you have pain, despair, and/or lack of pleasure, then you are not doing well and you would still be defined as being "sick" (or still having a "cold"). But if you have full pleasure in life with no pain and/or despair, then you are doing well.


How so? If there was a war between good people and bad people and there was a time bomb placed in the battlefield that killed both all the good and bad people, then couldn't we say that both good and bad things cease simultaneously? This argument can also hold for natural disasters since these things kill both good and bad things/people simultaneously all the time.


Based on everything I've said about pleasure in of itself being the only good thing in life and pain and despair only being the bad things in of themselves and everything else being neutral, then it is not absurd to say that, when a person is feeling depressed, that he/she has negative value and when he/she feels pleasure, that he/she has positive value.

Could you be a bit more succinct, or find a publisherRolleyes
Oh come on, no publisher has that much paper!

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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31-10-2014, 06:20 PM
RE: Life is all about pleasure
(31-10-2014 06:05 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 04:53 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Could you be a bit more succinct, or find a publisherRolleyes
Oh come on, no publisher has that much paper!

Or that little judgement.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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