Like it or not, God is immoral.
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12-09-2012, 12:54 PM
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
(12-09-2012 12:39 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  What can I say to one who will not question concepts like morality of God.

Oh wait. The bible tells me what to tell such people.

"Test all things"
1 Thessalonians. 5:21

I do not blame you for ignoring the bible. It is full of crap. Right?

Regards
DL

Out of context much?

12 But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction, 13 and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Live in peace with one another. 14 We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15 See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people. 16 Rejoice always; 17 pray without ceasing; 18 in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. 19 Do not quench the Spirit; 20 do not despise prophetic utterances. 21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; 22 abstain from every form of evil.

This is "Christian conduct".

"Examine everything" is a reference to one's spiritual life... don't quench the spirit or despise prophecies, instead examine them. This as nothing to do with questioning God.

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12-09-2012, 12:55 PM
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
(12-09-2012 12:39 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  What can I say to one who will not question concepts like morality of God.

Oh wait. The bible tells me what to tell such people.

"Test all things"
1 Thessalonians. 5:21

I do not blame you for ignoring the bible. It is full of crap. Right?

Regards
DL
Are you talking to me? You quoted me, yet your response has nothing to do with what I wrote.

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12-09-2012, 01:00 PM
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
(12-09-2012 10:23 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(12-09-2012 08:57 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  The way you use the word perfect, I think so.
Not the way I use it. I use the U. S. version that says that things can go to a more perfect state. But for here let me use best and in that sense, let me give you this for your opinion.

When this was written, most thought it to just be a cynical view of life but I think it is quite true and irrefutable, based on the anthropic principle.
What do you think?

Candide.

"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPClzIsYxvA

This is done by nature and not a God but would be a requirement of a God if he were real.

This would imply that God is progressive – that’s He’s in pursuit of a perfect state. This is a realm of theology called Process Theology, but this line of thinking prevents God’s omniscience, and is something I don’t agree with.

If God is omniscience, omnipotent, and omnipresent, then He is perfect. There is no progression. If there was progression, then He would fail to have the aforementioned attributes thus negating His perfection.


Quote:Christian theology is all over the place but their bible shows that man can become as God in the moral sense. A & E became as Gods knowing good and evil so with a moral sense comparable to God's, man can judge him.

I don’t believe in a literal Creation account. However, God imprinting His image on mankind and giving them the knowledge of what is good and what is evil is not a moral equivalent of God.

Morality isn’t because of God. Morality is innate in our nature and can be observed in other animals as well.

God imprinting His image on us only gave us the ability to discern good and evil; not what is moral and what is immoral because morality is relative, anyway. Morality is based on empathy and selfishness, His image gives us the ability to discern, in a moral sense, what is a sin and what isn’t.


Quote:Because it is the only standard that we can know.
Morals are developed by entities that live with their own kind in communities as they are applied generally from man to man. If one, like God, is only one of a kind, he would have no need or ability to form a moral code.

I agreed with your first above and yes there are different standards but if the first principle of Harm/care is not a part of any moral code then that society will go extinct.

This is true. His is His own and completely unknown. It only serves the purpose of His plan. Our standards for morality, like you said, comes from what we know and understand. However, our standards don’t dictate God’s standards.

Quote:As stated above about A & E, we can judge God by his own standard. We have it.

Again, see my comment on A & E above.

I don’t agree with your assertions about A&E, but even if this was true, God imparted His standards to imperfect beings; therefore, His perfect morality could never be accomplished.

A&E were never perfect, if they were, they wouldn’t have been able to fall into imperfection.

Quote:God's plan, if you accept that like A & E we can judge God's morality, then we know that it either immoral or insane.

That’s your assertion, though. That’s not my understanding.

Quote: It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

Yes

Quote:If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

He didn’t. Humanity’s reason was to fulfill Christ’s purpose.

Quote:God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

Yes

Quote:This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Don’t know. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a reason, though. My logic doesn’t understand it, but I have a limited point of view; God doesn’t.

Quote:Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

I’m assuming you’re talking about Jesus? See above.

Quote:One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYIIR...re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dspWh9g3...re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c0RFxXrY...re=related

This is a societal thing… again, relative morality.

Quote:The bottom line would be that if God cannot be judged to be moral, then when a believer says that God is good, he is making a judgement. If he is allowed to judge God good, then we are just as capable of judging God evil and if neither of us can judge him and his laws, we would all be insane to follow what we cannot judge.

Right?

Regards
DL

No. I say He is good in a sense that it’s good according to His plan. His predestination.

I also accept, by faith, that God is perfect. If a being is perfect, then He is worthy of being followed.

On God's great ( to you ) plan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUVXEmJRGns

On God's Omni everything.
Omnipotent means all powerful and able to do anything.
Your God cannot even reproduce and has to create chimera half breed by bestiality, he is one species and man is another, and incest by using his own mother who he coveted, breaking a commandment, and using another man's woman. Also breaking the hereditary prophesy of Jesus coming from the line of David. One of the main resons Jews reject Jesus as messiah.

You also spout on about how we cannot judge God while you go ahead and judge him good and omni everything.

Quite the double standard there friend.
Reciprocity is a moral precept where I come from and fair play. You are not allowing it.

Check your morals.

Regards
DL
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12-09-2012, 01:05 PM
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
(12-09-2012 08:19 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  [...] I usually agree with atheist's morals so I may not find any here to argue with at all.
There is no such thing as 'atheist morals'. The one and only thing all atheists have in common is a lack of belief in god(s). Everything beyond that is a choice of the individual.

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12-09-2012, 01:14 PM
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
(12-09-2012 12:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  [

In essence, then, your belief in Christianity is irrelevant to your life.

Yes and no.
Don't you hate that kind of beginning?

Yes in the sense that I do not believe in Christianity. It is an immoral theology that any sane man would discard for the crap that it is.

No it was not irrelevant as it helped me push my apotheosis. No proof, don't ask for any and no, I will not try to push anyone for belief in my anecdotal experience.

From what my research has shown, there were basically Gnostic cults or sects for many of the old religions.

From MPOV, all scriptures were written to initiate and prompt dialog in the search for God and or reasons for things being as they are.

I recommend that all Gods be thought of as myths unless one is lucky enough to have an apotheosis. Only then should anyone believe in the unseen. Even then, to believe that what is found is the end to the seeking would mean that the seeker is lost to idol worship.

Apotheosis to me is just finding a rung on Jacob's ladder. Please do not use the dictionary definition because although not wrong, it gives the wrong impression.

Regards
DL
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12-09-2012, 01:15 PM
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
(12-09-2012 01:00 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  
(12-09-2012 10:23 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  This would imply that God is progressive – that’s He’s in pursuit of a perfect state. This is a realm of theology called Process Theology, but this line of thinking prevents God’s omniscience, and is something I don’t agree with.

If God is omniscience, omnipotent, and omnipresent, then He is perfect. There is no progression. If there was progression, then He would fail to have the aforementioned attributes thus negating His perfection.



I don’t believe in a literal Creation account. However, God imprinting His image on mankind and giving them the knowledge of what is good and what is evil is not a moral equivalent of God.

Morality isn’t because of God. Morality is innate in our nature and can be observed in other animals as well.

God imprinting His image on us only gave us the ability to discern good and evil; not what is moral and what is immoral because morality is relative, anyway. Morality is based on empathy and selfishness, His image gives us the ability to discern, in a moral sense, what is a sin and what isn’t.



This is true. His is His own and completely unknown. It only serves the purpose of His plan. Our standards for morality, like you said, comes from what we know and understand. However, our standards don’t dictate God’s standards.


I don’t agree with your assertions about A&E, but even if this was true, God imparted His standards to imperfect beings; therefore, His perfect morality could never be accomplished.

A&E were never perfect, if they were, they wouldn’t have been able to fall into imperfection.


That’s your assertion, though. That’s not my understanding.


Yes


He didn’t. Humanity’s reason was to fulfill Christ’s purpose.


Yes


Don’t know. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a reason, though. My logic doesn’t understand it, but I have a limited point of view; God doesn’t.


I’m assuming you’re talking about Jesus? See above.


This is a societal thing… again, relative morality.


No. I say He is good in a sense that it’s good according to His plan. His predestination.

I also accept, by faith, that God is perfect. If a being is perfect, then He is worthy of being followed.

On God's great ( to you ) plan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUVXEmJRGns

On God's Omni everything.
Omnipotent means all powerful and able to do anything.
Your God cannot even reproduce and has to create chimera half breed by bestiality, he is one species and man is another, and incest by using his own mother who he coveted, breaking a commandment, and using another man's woman. Also breaking the hereditary prophesy of Jesus coming from the line of David. One of the main resons Jews reject Jesus as messiah.

You also spout on about how we cannot judge God while you go ahead and judge him good and omni everything.

Quite the double standard there friend.
Reciprocity is a moral precept where I come from and fair play. You are not allowing it.

Check your morals.

Regards
DL

No, I'm not judging God.

I'm simply saying what He reveal to us in the Bible. He reveals His attributes and His character to us. This isn't "judging". This is stating what He chose to convey via the Bible.

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12-09-2012, 01:15 PM
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
(12-09-2012 12:37 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(12-09-2012 12:35 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  It happens I have the proof I need but recognize that I have nothing to show. That is always the way with apotheosis.
Don't make me laugh. You don't have any proof at all. All you have is anecdotal evidence. Drinking Beverage

Exactly. Proof for myself but not for anyone else.

Regards
DL
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12-09-2012, 01:19 PM
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
(12-09-2012 12:41 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  [

In other words, you do a lot of 'shrooms. Drinking Beverage

Please do not waste your time and mine with crap.
The best have had their go at me and if I could not take it or had a thin skin I could have been dishonest and not laid it all out here.
Have no fear. I have no dogma to sell.

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DL
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12-09-2012, 01:21 PM
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
(12-09-2012 12:42 PM)Chas Wrote:  What you have is not proof, it is delusion. You had a brain fart and now glorify it.

Get rid of all the B S so we can get back on topic.

Regards
DL
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12-09-2012, 01:24 PM
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
(12-09-2012 12:54 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(12-09-2012 12:39 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  What can I say to one who will not question concepts like morality of God.

Oh wait. The bible tells me what to tell such people.

"Test all things"
1 Thessalonians. 5:21

I do not blame you for ignoring the bible. It is full of crap. Right?

Regards
DL

Out of context much?

12 But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction, 13 and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Live in peace with one another. 14 We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15 See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people. 16 Rejoice always; 17 pray without ceasing; 18 in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. 19 Do not quench the Spirit; 20 do not despise prophetic utterances. 21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; 22 abstain from every form of evil.

This is "Christian conduct".

"Examine everything" is a reference to one's spiritual life... don't quench the spirit or despise prophecies, instead examine them. This as nothing to do with questioning God.

Christian conduct, if society allowed it or joined them in insanity, is to stone unruly children.

Would you live under your God's laws and do so?

Regards
DL
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