Like it or not, God is immoral.
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12-09-2012, 08:23 AM
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
(12-09-2012 07:44 AM)frankiej Wrote:  Ah, good day, sir. I see you have joined us from over at af.org... as you can see I'm everywhere... I'm like aids, only more fun.

Welcome.

I get around as well because it is getting hard to find any apologists worth talking to.

It may partly be my fault though for using the same name. They are getting to know better than to tackle me.

Regards
DL
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12-09-2012, 08:57 AM
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
Quote:
(12-09-2012 07:56 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(12-09-2012 05:25 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  This clip show how what I see as a good representation of moral men judging God’s morality. I agree with their verdict and judge God to be immoral.

I'm assuming you agree with me that humans are imperfect and are incapable of being perfect.

The way you use the word perfect, I think so.
Not the way I use it. I use the U. S. version that says that things can go to a more perfect state. But for here let me use best and in that sense, let me give you this for your opinion.

When this was written, most thought it to just be a cynical view of life but I think it is quite true and irrefutable, based on the anthropic principle.
What do you think?

Candide.

"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPClzIsYxvA

This is done by nature and not a God but would be a requirement of a God if he were real.

Quote:In Christian theology, God is perfect in every way. How can imperfect men judge a perfect being?

Christian theology is all over the place but their bible shows that man can become as God in the moral sense. A & E became as Gods knowing good and evil so with a moral sense comparable to God's, man can judge him.

Quote:Moreover, why are men holding God to a moral standard created by men? What makes this standard the standard.

Because it is the only standard that we can know.
Morals are developed by entities that live with their own kind in communities as they are applied generally from man to man. If one, like God, is only one of a kind, he would have no need or ability to form a moral code.

Quote:Morality is relative to societies, and there are different understanding of morality all around the world.

I agreed with your first above and yes there are different standards but if the first principle of Harm/care is not a part of any moral code then that society will go extinct.

Quote: A moral standard is picked to judge God simply because it seems the best and most accepted because that moral standard of that society is the largest and most accepted. How can something so shifting be used to judge something so great?

As stated above about A & E, we can judge God by his own standard. We have it.

Quote:
Quote:From the above and from all that we know of God as depicted in the Bible, one can only conclude that God is immoral.

All those with intelligence who can discern moral actions from immoral actions will agree.

Moral actions for this exercise will be those issues where God interacts with humans.

If you do not agree that God is immoral from what you have heard above, then give your reason and I will show that God chose the immoral path in whatever action you choose to use as your example of his moral action. That or I will show that any of his altruistic acts are self-serving.

Regards
DL

No matter how smart or intelligent men are, if you're referencing the God from Christian theology, God is infinitely smarter and more intelligent; therefore, there can be no comparison.

Again, see my comment on A & E above.

Quote:If God is perfect, His morality is perfect. If His actions depict something morally repugnant, you have to ask the question, "Is it repugnant from a human standard or God's standard?"

It's like this:

If you put poison on an ant bed and totally wipe out the ants, is that morally wrong from a human standard? No, of course not. You want to keep your yard safe for you, your children, and your pets. However, from the ants point of view, you have just committed mass murder.

So, who is right in this scenario? The one with the most power, of course. Humans are astronomically more powerful and wise than ants; therefore, their moral standard reigns.

If God is infinitely more powerful and wise than humans, then His moral standard reigns supreme. We are unable to judge Him or hold Him accountable to our moral standard.

He is only held accountable to Himself since nothing else can be perfect or infinite; therefore, His morals are His own and serve the purpose of His plan.

God's plan, if you accept that like A & E we can judge God's morality, then we know that it either immoral or insane.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYIIR...re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dspWh9g3...re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c0RFxXrY...re=related

The bottom line would be that if God cannot be judged to be moral, then when a believer says that God is good, he is making a judgement. If he is allowed to judge God good, then we are just as capable of judging God evil and if neither of us can judge him and his laws, we would all be insane to follow what we cannot judge.

Right?

Regards
DL
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12-09-2012, 09:12 AM
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
(12-09-2012 08:08 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(12-09-2012 07:56 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  If God is perfect, His morality is perfect. If His actions depict something morally repugnant, you have to ask the question, "Is it repugnant from a human standard or God's standard?"
a. How do you know that god's morality is not equal to ours?
b. How do you know that god has his own standard?
c. "X is perfect, therefore it's morality is perfect" does not logically follow. What is perfect morality even supposed to be?

A&B - In Romans 9 it talks about this. God has His own plan, and with that plan He has predestine some really bad stuff. It also says that we are not capable of asking about His morality because we are just humans.

C - Immorality is an imperfect action. A perfect being cannot commit something imperfect because then He would no longer be perfect. And, I don't know what perfect morality is supposed to be. I think that's something only God knows.

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12-09-2012, 09:18 AM (This post was last modified: 12-09-2012 09:25 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
(12-09-2012 08:19 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  
Quote:It could not. That is why I said as depicted in the bible. That is what we are to judge.

I admit I did not cast around to see how many believers were about here. If you are right. I will find few to argue with.

Most here will be atheists then and as a Gnostic Christian, I usually agree with atheist's morals so I may not find any here to argue with at all. Arguing the existence of God is a useless exercise until he shows up and if he ever did, the Haig would have the first crack at him and if they missed, I have something for the S O B.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7vCww3j2-w

Regards
DL

You're a gnostic Christian?

Edit: Also, your response to me is melded within the quotes. Nothing big, just a little hard to read. I'll get back with you in a few.

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12-09-2012, 09:28 AM
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
(12-09-2012 08:19 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Most here will be atheists then and as a Gnostic Christian, I usually agree with atheist's morals so I may not find any here to argue with at all. Arguing the existence of God is a useless exercise until he shows up and if he ever did, the Haig would have the first crack at him and if they missed, I have something for the S O B.

The probability that there is a god even resembling yours or KC's is vanishingly small. The world looks just like it would look and behaves just like it would behave without any gods.

Your gods add nothing to our knowledge, and certainly not to our ethics or morals.

When you bring evidence of a god, I will discuss its attributes. Until you have evidence of existence, I think you should all just shut the fuck up. Your theological masturbation is boring, and your insistence on injecting it into discussions is annoying.

You are intellectually dishonest.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-09-2012, 09:56 AM
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
(12-09-2012 09:12 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  A&B - In Romans 9 it talks about this. God has His own plan, and with that plan He has predestine some really bad stuff. It also says that we are not capable of asking about His morality because we are just humans.

C - Immorality is an imperfect action. A perfect being cannot commit something imperfect because then He would no longer be perfect. And, I don't know what perfect morality is supposed to be. I think that's something only God knows.

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12-09-2012, 09:57 AM
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
Romans 9 (one of many variations):
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”


What a wonderful, wide-open statement. A man living 2000 years ago believes there must be a god. The only way he can reconcile this belief is to state that god will do whatever it wants, to anyone, without explanation, while (of course) remaining just.

The idea of a god comes first, followed by the illogical reasoning needed to fit god into the events of the real world. As a theist, you must completely disregard this perspective. However, I can't imagine the mental gymnastics required to do so.

You can see through human history that societies are susceptible to totalitarian control, mistreatment, cruelty, and other horrors. It's no surprise that a particular society would create a god with the same traits and call them 'just.' We apparently like to be crapped on and will welcome the heavenly mudslide with complete subservience.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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12-09-2012, 10:23 AM
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
(12-09-2012 08:57 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  The way you use the word perfect, I think so.
Not the way I use it. I use the U. S. version that says that things can go to a more perfect state. But for here let me use best and in that sense, let me give you this for your opinion.

When this was written, most thought it to just be a cynical view of life but I think it is quite true and irrefutable, based on the anthropic principle.
What do you think?

Candide.

"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPClzIsYxvA

This is done by nature and not a God but would be a requirement of a God if he were real.

This would imply that God is progressive – that’s He’s in pursuit of a perfect state. This is a realm of theology called Process Theology, but this line of thinking prevents God’s omniscience, and is something I don’t agree with.

If God is omniscience, omnipotent, and omnipresent, then He is perfect. There is no progression. If there was progression, then He would fail to have the aforementioned attributes thus negating His perfection.


Quote:Christian theology is all over the place but their bible shows that man can become as God in the moral sense. A & E became as Gods knowing good and evil so with a moral sense comparable to God's, man can judge him.

I don’t believe in a literal Creation account. However, God imprinting His image on mankind and giving them the knowledge of what is good and what is evil is not a moral equivalent of God.

Morality isn’t because of God. Morality is innate in our nature and can be observed in other animals as well.

God imprinting His image on us only gave us the ability to discern good and evil; not what is moral and what is immoral because morality is relative, anyway. Morality is based on empathy and selfishness, His image gives us the ability to discern, in a moral sense, what is a sin and what isn’t.


Quote:Because it is the only standard that we can know.
Morals are developed by entities that live with their own kind in communities as they are applied generally from man to man. If one, like God, is only one of a kind, he would have no need or ability to form a moral code.

I agreed with your first above and yes there are different standards but if the first principle of Harm/care is not a part of any moral code then that society will go extinct.

This is true. His is His own and completely unknown. It only serves the purpose of His plan. Our standards for morality, like you said, comes from what we know and understand. However, our standards don’t dictate God’s standards.

Quote:As stated above about A & E, we can judge God by his own standard. We have it.

Again, see my comment on A & E above.

I don’t agree with your assertions about A&E, but even if this was true, God imparted His standards to imperfect beings; therefore, His perfect morality could never be accomplished.

A&E were never perfect, if they were, they wouldn’t have been able to fall into imperfection.

Quote:God's plan, if you accept that like A & E we can judge God's morality, then we know that it either immoral or insane.

That’s your assertion, though. That’s not my understanding.

Quote: It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

Yes

Quote:If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

He didn’t. Humanity’s reason was to fulfill Christ’s purpose.

Quote:God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

Yes

Quote:This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Don’t know. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a reason, though. My logic doesn’t understand it, but I have a limited point of view; God doesn’t.

Quote:Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

I’m assuming you’re talking about Jesus? See above.

Quote:One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYIIR...re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dspWh9g3...re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c0RFxXrY...re=related

This is a societal thing… again, relative morality.

Quote:The bottom line would be that if God cannot be judged to be moral, then when a believer says that God is good, he is making a judgement. If he is allowed to judge God good, then we are just as capable of judging God evil and if neither of us can judge him and his laws, we would all be insane to follow what we cannot judge.

Right?

Regards
DL

No. I say He is good in a sense that it’s good according to His plan. His predestination.

I also accept, by faith, that God is perfect. If a being is perfect, then He is worthy of being followed.

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12-09-2012, 10:24 AM
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
(12-09-2012 09:56 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(12-09-2012 09:12 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  A&B - In Romans 9 it talks about this. God has His own plan, and with that plan He has predestine some really bad stuff. It also says that we are not capable of asking about His morality because we are just humans.

C - Immorality is an imperfect action. A perfect being cannot commit something imperfect because then He would no longer be perfect. And, I don't know what perfect morality is supposed to be. I think that's something only God knows.

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I don't understand what you're implying.

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12-09-2012, 10:26 AM
RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
(12-09-2012 09:57 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  The only way he can reconcile this belief is to state that god will do whatever it wants, to anyone, without explanation, while (of course) remaining just.

This is exactly what I've said.

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