List of Christian Atrocities
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
11-06-2011, 07:19 AM
 
RE: List of Christian Atrocities
There was quite a lot of ad hominem abuse going on in this thread. You can't insinuate that people take drugs and things like that, because apart from it being insulting, it also misses the point of having a forum to debate in.

By insulting each other we become as bad as the Christian Apologists who defend their faith by insulting us. Concentrate on the points raised, not the person.

For me, Ghost has got it bang on.

Christianity is used as a target for "fundamentalist atheists" to attack which isn't right way to deal with it at all.
You can look at any organisation and find some things its done which is bad. This doesn't excuse "Christians" (lets lump them all together, because they're basically all the same haha) but as Gassy Kitten quoted, there are a few ways that religion is misused. It's easy to blame faiths for huge atrocities that happened, we must be careful to distinguish between genuine religious wars, and when faiths are being used as shields.

As Jesus said "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit" Matthew 7, v18. So what that says about their religious institutions, I'll leave that for you to decide. If anyone read the bible, it's clear that any modern church you look at is on very shaky scriptural ground anyway. Whatever faith these people claim to have, its certainly not the one from the bible.

Religious institutions have always been used as a way for some people to have power over others, and the way that power is used determines what we think of them.

We should get away from any institution which proclaims to have all the answers, and start to think for ourselves.
Quote this message in a reply
11-06-2011, 09:41 AM
RE: List of Christian Atrocities
Christianity wasn't the cause, it was the cover up and the bond that unified the wrongdoers.

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Observer's post
12-06-2011, 07:00 PM (This post was last modified: 12-06-2011 07:37 PM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: List of Christian Atrocities
I haven't looked at the list was simply responding to you ghost, and I agree that if this was deemed the only reason for these or in most cases the main reason it would be wrong. What christianity's main role in a lot of atrocities is, is the morale boost to convince people that there is good reason for what they do. It's not only christianity which suggests this (most religions do), christians just happened to be the ones doing the most expanding.

I do feel that it is acceptable to suggest without something taking christianity's role they would not have went as smoothly. Which allows you to suggest that christianity was a contributing factor, even a leading contributing factor. But never the whole reason. And this is where people get confused with someone like Stalin in arguing things. Nohing about his political agenda required people to be atheists or even lent from atheism. It was about a political framework being introduced and making it fit. The reason christianity is named for things that happened in christian countries is because they used religion as a reason.

If it's the site I looked at before it's very non factual, but I generally don't worry when people discuss links often they are venting.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-06-2011, 07:26 PM
RE: List of Christian Atrocities
(10-06-2011 11:33 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Monk.

[snip]

I understand what you are saying. At the time, they were victims of the unknown, a more powerful force (Europeans) conquered the less powerful (Native Americans), through wars, the introduction of new diseases, and so forth. As for the number, it's safe to assume it's a few million, probably no more than say, 15 at most optimistic.

Now, with that being said. My biggest gripe is this. 'Rational' people, ie: People who are skeptical of supernatural space beings, are consistently told by religious people that lack of faith leads to mass murder/genocide/other atrocities. The atrocities they mention are the normal stuff, Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc. Of course, the Hitler argument is total nonsense just because his own book, and the Nazi allegiance pledge says otherwise. Hitler was definitely a deist, maybe christian even.

As for the others, Communism is not just religious oppression. If religious people took the time to read a book instead of listening to their local church gossip, communism is totalitarian by nature. Wouldn't you agree? Some/most leaders of Communist countries are trying to become a god in human form to their people. (North Korea). Communism punishes all threats to the party, religious, education, science, political opponents. When religious people say the things about non believers are genocidal or whatever, but they cannot ever show a clear, definitive, but-for causal link between atheism and bad acts. The relationship is nothing more than 'post hoc ergo proper hoc.' It's similar to saying: "People who will kill millions have mustaches. Hitler and Stalin killed millions of people. Therefore, Hitler and Stalin had mustaches"...wait, hold on, THAT'S TRUE! I have a mustache. I'm shaving right now so I don't kill millions of people!

It's only in the last hundred years or so that skepticism of ancient caveman superstition increased 10000x fold, due to the church not having the power any longer to murder people for asking questions. But then again, Sam Harris /has/ to walk around with private security because of the Death threats he gets daily due to his outspokenness of the bible, etc.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-06-2011, 10:31 PM (This post was last modified: 12-06-2011 10:38 PM by Ghost.)
RE: List of Christian Atrocities
Hey, Monk.

I have to disagree pretty strenuously. Communist repression of religion is beyond argument a direct attempt to create an Atheist society. As you say, the leadership needs to crush all threats to their power. Power is quite simply the control of three forces: influence, authority and coercion. Authority is the belief by the people that the entity in power has the right to behave in ways that others cannot and to impel the populace to do things that they would not otherwise do or. For example, I believe that the police have the authority to attack a man waving a gun at them. I legitimise that authority. I do not believe that the police have the authority to attack a little old lady holding a sign that says police can be mean at times. In my city/province/country, police authority is limited and heavily regulated. One of the reasons that religious organisations have power over their membership and why feudal lords had power over the serfs is because God's authority is absolute. God has the authority to do anything and order you to do anything. A feudal lord or a church leader is an avatar for the word of God, ie, God speaks through them (so goes the line). So it is not the Pope or the king telling you what to do, they're just the messenger. They might be fallible but that's irrelevant because God is talking through them. Religious authority very clearly comes from God. Totalitarian leaders (which most of the communist leaders have been) seek absolute authority. They CANNOT have absolute authority or anything approaching it if they are competing with divine authority. Divine authority restricts and regulates their authority. “You/I can’t do what you ask, Great Leader, because God says no.” There are too many chances for their authority to be challenged by divine authority as long as it has some form of representation in the society. So if they break the church, if they outlaw religion, if they persecute religious leaders, they undermine and/or eliminate the competition of religious authority. It frees them from restriction and regulation. So it's not at all a case of indirect post hoc ergo proper hoc. It is the deliberate attempt to remove the presence of religious authority and replace it with their authority. To make the state not-Theist. To make it Atheist. The road to that goal is paved in atrocity.

Kim Jung Il is trying to achieve Godhood in the sense that he wants to have absolute authority and the only person that has absolute authority in the collective unconscious is God. We are the ones that ascribe divinity to him as a simplified explanation of the degree of his authority. We say “He’s like a God”. But he neither is nor does he claim to be one. Emperor Hirohito of Japan took things a step further and said that he was a living God. God wasn't talking through him, HE was God. Some cult leaders say this too. It's a great way to get your people to believe you have absolute authority. But Stalin was seeking Godhood in the metaphorical sense, in the sense of one who has absolute authority, not the literal.

Monk Wrote:'Rational' people, ie: People who are skeptical of supernatural space beings, are consistently told by religious people that lack of faith leads to mass murder/genocide/other atrocities. The atrocities they mention are the normal stuff, Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc. Of course, the Hitler argument is total nonsense just because his own book, and the Nazi allegiance pledge says otherwise. Hitler was definitely a deist, maybe christian even.

I absolutely disagree with the notion that a lack of faith LEADS to mass murder et all. That's cockamamie. I’m with ya, homey. But I absolutely believe that those atrocities are not a product of faith, anyone is capable of committing those acts, religious or secular. That is to say, they are not exclusive to faith.

Both religious and secular forces (in their Totalitarian form at least) are trying to do the same thing, remove all threats to their power. A Theistic group, like the Taliban for example, says 'we shall wipe out all of the laws of men and make all of us live under the laws of GOD as interpreted and administered by us'. An Atheist group (and it is Atheists that fight tooth and nail to insist that the definition of Atheist is simply not-Theist, so Stalin and Pol-Pot's Atheism cannot be dismissed as incidental) says 'I shall wipe out all of the laws of God and make all of us live under the laws of MINE/OURS as interpreted and administered by ME/US (ie, we shall make this state not-Theist). Someone like Hitler hedged his bets. He said my Authority is absolute for two reasons. First, God has said X, Y, Z and second, because I am the Führer. He blended religious and secular authority (although he used far more secular authority than religious <cue argument>) and crushed everyone that threatened his interpretation of religious authority (and so persecuted religious leaders who said, ‘wait a minute, that’s not what God said, ya fucking psycho’) and everyone that threatened his secular authority (anyone who questioned the absolute authority of the Führer, ie, he's just a man, we don't have to listen to him).

So when Christians rolled into the Americas, they were immediately faced with a threat to their power in the guise of an entire continent filled with peoples who did not in any way recognise God's authority. So they had to be converted or crushed. The atrocities committed, as callous as this might sound, were simply the result of combating an entrenched opposition to the Church's power. In the exact same way, the gulags and torture and murder of political dissidents in Stalin's Soviet Union are merely the result of combating an entrenched opposition to his Totalitarian power.

So what's the point? The point is that without doubt, you can point fingers at the Church and identify both direct and indirect links to acts of atrocity. You can do the same for secular leaders and groups. You can point the finger at corporations, like the oil companies in North Africa that have their bribed government officials order the army to massacre people who oppose foreigners raping their oil supply and giving them nothing in return. The mechanics of these atrocities is clear. It's simply the result of crushing threats to power, the result of maintaining and expanding power. It is the search for power in its generic form that causes these atrocities. When we say things like only religious groups are capable of it because of some factor unique to their makeup, we expose ourselves to the exact same thing from other groups who can then hide behind the shield of "we're not religious so you don't have to fear us".

Hey, Lilith.

I planned on writing a detailed response but I think I'd just be rehashing much of what I just said to Monk. Stalin absolutely required people to be Atheists because he needed them to shed their belief in divine authority. That's as direct a link as it gets.

To expand on everything, what I'm after is the framework that all of this sits on. For me, that's simply hierarchy. Hierarchy is a very specific lifestyle with very specific requirements to ensure stability. All of the atrocities of the last few MILLENIA have been committed in the name of nothing but supporting the stability of the hierarchy. Religious hierarchy, secular hierarchy, it's irrelevant. Hierarchy itself demands atrocities. It is the enemy, not its permutations.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Ghost's post
13-06-2011, 11:29 AM
RE: List of Christian Atrocities
Yes, Stalin required people to mostly abandon religion but he did not do it to push an atheistic agenda, he did it to to push a Stalin agenda of total subservience to the state. Atheism was neither not focal point of his policies nor a reason that was used to motivate his followers (although Stalin himself seemed to have a deep rooted hatred of religion or at least the Orthodox Church so that may have motivated him, personally but there is no concrete evidence of that, at least not that I'm aware of). Compare that with other obvious examples like the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Holocaust and you see an absolute use of god and religion as both a justification and a singular cause for these events. Whether the leaders of all these events were really motivated by belief in god or believed what they said is almost irrelevant; what is relevant, I think, is how effectively religion can be used to motivate people to do horrific things to their fellow human beings.

While not all the crimes perpetrated by Christians over the centuries can be directly laid at the feet of Christianity as a sweeping religious concept, I think it is fair to say that the religion is fairly complicit in a great deal of these crimes. If it wasn't for the Church's original position on Jews, for example, and their staunch refusal to back off that position, the likelihood of not only ordinary Germans going along with Hitler but ordinary Russians, Poles, Dutch, French, etc. citizens helping out the Nazis - and note this includes people who were basically conquered by them helping them with their "Final Solution" - goes down considerably. When you are raised to believe that people are outside of god and not in his graces and will not sit with him in heaven, when you believe that these people are not equal human beings, it becomes significantly easier to commit wholesale slaughter of these people.

Religion plays a role in most, although obviously not all, of the events in that list. There are obviously things that are on that list that are probably completely devoid of any religious influence, but I think the majority have some at least indirect religious input into them. Now, I'm sure someone is going to come and ask me to pull one example of no religious impact from that list and I will confess that I can't and am just working on the law of averages that there is something that fits that description on that list. I did not take the time to study that list in detail because, as has been pointed out, it was so ridiculously stupid and not based on any sense of reality that I just did not take the time to read past the first few items. I'm with Ghost on that point - the numbers are just absurd and not based on anything but someone's desire to make a point and make it dramatically. But, despite the fact that the list seems bogus, I think the basic point it tries makes, while exaggerated, is fundamentally correct. If we all viewed each other equally as human beings, it would be a lot more difficult to commit wholesale slaughter against each other or to buy and sell fellow human beings as we have.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-06-2011, 12:30 PM (This post was last modified: 13-06-2011 12:34 PM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: List of Christian Atrocities
Looking at this list I see it is much better prepared than the previous one discussed on this forum. To a large extent I would agree to the incidents while not the exact numbers. Don't really have the time to look through it all, so far none stood out to me as fallacious. The stuff at the top is very accurate, at least as far as can be said of something only chronicled by early peoples. Maybe later I'll look through it. It does actually look like it may provide some interesting reads from the source pile.

I'll leave the discussion with ghost for now. I feel BnW handled the Stalin discussion, and that his overall point of seeking hierarchies is true.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-06-2011, 12:51 PM (This post was last modified: 13-06-2011 01:00 PM by Ghost.)
RE: List of Christian Atrocities
Hey, BnW.

"I don't want there to be any religion and I don't want anyone believing in God, or Theos, or Theism," is about as clear an Atheist agenda as it gets. If that's not an Atheist agenda, then nothing is and that nothing has less to do with reality than a linguistic loophole.

Whether he used Atheism to whip people into a lather or not is irrelevant. Just because religious groups do it does not mean that you must do that to push a given agenda. If my mom tries to get me excited about eating broccoli, that's a Broccoli agenda. If I torture her any time she makes it, forbid anyone in the household from possessing or eating it and machine gun the broccoli delivery guy when he comes to the door, that's an Abroccoli agenda plain and simple.

I agree with you, he was absolutely pushing a Stalinist agenda. He was trying to get the people to recognise HIS absolute authority. But to accomplish that he had to crush all traces of GOD'S authority. He had to make the state not-Theist. While that might seem secondary at first blush, that's exactly the reverse of what Theistic totalitarian douches do. They want people to recognise GOD'S absolute authority (as interpreted and administered by whatever douche is in charge). But to accomplish that they have to crush all traces of MAN'S authority and/or the authority of OTHER GODS.

So focal point shmocal point, it is what it is. If the crime is getting people excited about something, then Stalin is innocent. If the crime is crushing your enemies, seeing them driven before you and hearing the lamentations of the women, then they're all guilty.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-06-2011, 01:03 PM
RE: List of Christian Atrocities
The point here is that Stalin did not use an atheist argument to push his agenda and people were not inspired to follow him and commit atrocities because of his message of non-belief. The opposite can't be said about about theistic totalitarian douches.

And, you missed the obvious counter to this, that being thus: if Stalin was able to run a totalitarian and murderous regime without invoking divine providence or claiming his victims were somehow deserving of what he did to them, doesn't it somewhat run contrary to the argument that the belief in religion is responsible for man's inhumanity to man? That would have been the better counter. Pity you missed it.

Oh, and you had a broccoli delivery guy growing up? I bet that guy had severe emotional problems from all the cold looks he received.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-06-2011, 01:34 PM
RE: List of Christian Atrocities
Lol.

Like I said, he's innocent of fomenting the people with promises of an Atheist utopia, "Dude, we're so gonna be non-religious!". But that's hardly important. It's the shit he's guilty of that's the issue. He wanted an Atheist state. That's an Atheist agenda. It cannot be anything else.

He didn't use religion, he didn't use Atheism per se, but he sure as hell inspired people to follow him and committ atrocities. He didn't kill all those people himself.

It's not that Stalin was able to run things WITHOUT invoking divine law, his regime couldn't function if he did. He did everything in his power to crush the invocation of God.

That broccoli delivery guy was a son of a bitch!

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: