List of logical contradictions in nature of the God of the Bible
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24-06-2015, 03:02 AM
RE: List of logical contradictions in nature of the God of the Bible
(24-06-2015 02:08 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  
(23-06-2015 08:29 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  The idea of a timeless god is just special pleading. If god can have always existed eternally, why couldn't the universe/energy?

Is it a logical contradiction? I guess if they presuppose that God created the universe and that creation of the universe was the beginning of space and time, then god would have to have existed before space and time which makes the idea of being timeless contradictory.

It's not just contradictory though, is it? It's illogical. I'm not having a pop - I'm just saying is all.

You said, and I quote, "then god would have to have existed before space and time ....". Given that, until the universe existed, there was no space time, one can't talk in terms of a before (or an after for that matter) because, before the universe existed, before and after didn't exist because time itself didn't exist. If time didn't exist, the concepts of before and after are illogical.

For god to have created the Universe, he would have had to exist outside of the Universe but 'outside' of the universe doesn't exist because a) the universe didn't exist for anything to exist outside of and b) the universe encompasses all and there is no 'outside' because, by definition, everything is within it.

If you are having difficulty with the above then spare a thought for me. I had to write it.

I think we're essentially saying the same thing. Maybe I'm wrong though. I'm not as strong at explaining my thoughts in words as I am in person.
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24-06-2015, 03:31 AM
RE: List of logical contradictions in nature of the God of the Bible
(24-06-2015 03:02 AM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  
(24-06-2015 02:08 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  It's not just contradictory though, is it? It's illogical. I'm not having a pop - I'm just saying is all.

You said, and I quote, "then god would have to have existed before space and time ....". Given that, until the universe existed, there was no space time, one can't talk in terms of a before (or an after for that matter) because, before the universe existed, before and after didn't exist because time itself didn't exist. If time didn't exist, the concepts of before and after are illogical.

For god to have created the Universe, he would have had to exist outside of the Universe but 'outside' of the universe doesn't exist because a) the universe didn't exist for anything to exist outside of and b) the universe encompasses all and there is no 'outside' because, by definition, everything is within it.

If you are having difficulty with the above then spare a thought for me. I had to write it.

I think we're essentially saying the same thing. Maybe I'm wrong though. I'm not as strong at explaining my thoughts in words as I am in person.

Having re-read your post, I see now that we are.

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24-06-2015, 03:34 AM
RE: List of logical contradictions in nature of the God of the Bible
(24-06-2015 02:13 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  
(24-06-2015 01:06 AM)Banjo Wrote:  You want Yaweh. This is one of the better sites. Easy to find using Goggle.

Bible god contradictions.

When you say yaweh - do you mean Yahoo?

Of course. Forgive me, I know not what I do. Tongue

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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24-06-2015, 05:33 AM
RE: List of logical contradictions in nature of the God of the Bible
To clarify about my original question: I'm not very philosophically minded, but I wanted a list of all the logical-contradictions/paradoxes about God to then go and study each one until I understand the contradiction better. I did some more searching online, and here are a few other examples I found:

How can a spaceless (without substance), timeless being interact with its creation?
How can a being be omnipresent without being present in space and in time (if God is timeless)?
How can an omnibenevolent being have a grand plan that requires evil?
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24-06-2015, 06:15 AM
RE: List of logical contradictions in nature of the God of the Bible
(24-06-2015 05:33 AM)Learner Wrote:  To clarify about my original question: I'm not very philosophically minded, but I wanted a list of all the logical-contradictions/paradoxes about God to then go and study each one until I understand the contradiction better. I did some more searching online, and here are a few other examples I found:

How can a spaceless (without substance), timeless being interact with its creation?
How can a being be omnipresent without being present in space and in time (if God is timeless)?
How can an omnibenevolent being have a grand plan that requires evil?

Iron Chariots has some pages like that.

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24-06-2015, 06:41 AM
RE: List of logical contradictions in nature of the God of the Bible
(24-06-2015 06:15 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(24-06-2015 05:33 AM)Learner Wrote:  To clarify about my original question: I'm not very philosophically minded, but I wanted a list of all the logical-contradictions/paradoxes about God to then go and study each one until I understand the contradiction better. I did some more searching online, and here are a few other examples I found:

How can a spaceless (without substance), timeless being interact with its creation?
How can a being be omnipresent without being present in space and in time (if God is timeless)?
How can an omnibenevolent being have a grand plan that requires evil?

Iron Chariots has some pages like that.

Unfogged, thank you! Looks like a great resource. In the "References" at the bottom of the Iron Chariots link, I found a link to a great-looking article "Incompatible-Properties Arguments: A Survey" on the Infidels website:

http://infidels.org/library/modern/theod...tible.html
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24-06-2015, 08:03 AM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2015 08:09 AM by Tonechaser77.)
RE: List of logical contradictions in nature of the God of the Bible
(23-06-2015 07:53 PM)Learner Wrote:  What I had more in mind was topics like the problems with the idea of a timeless God.

I don't remember the article name but I recently came across something that dealt with this question so I'll summarize as best as possible.

The dilemma for any type of theist is if a god exists in time or outside of it. There doesn't seem to be any purely rational way to decide between the two views. I believe the article broke the situation down into temporal or extratemporal. Since time is a dimension by which god is measured, or god's existence is outside of time you can denote the two views as Tgod and Egod.

Tgod is supported by biblical myths. He created the world in six days, and he reacts to events as they unfold. He kicks Adam and Eve out of Eden after they eat from the incorrect tree. He wipes out the world with the flood after mankind turns out to be sinful. He turns Lot's wife into a salt pillar after she favors a little looky-lou on S&G. Fundamentalists must believe in the Tgod hypothesis. But it doesn't make sense to suppose that god did absolutely nothing for an infinite period of time before creation.

I guess you could conjecture that he created an infinity of universes prior to ours, and that he will create an infinity of universes in the future. In this view, there would be an infinity of universes like ours in which Jesus was crucified, and perhaps an infinite number in which he never was. So would there be an infinite number of people in heaven or hell too?

Maybe instead everything is cyclical? god creates the very same universe again and again. That implies that we experience the same moments of bliss or torment an infinite number of times, once for each cycle. This solved the problem but it sure isn't explained by Islam or Christianity. However, we must keep in mind the non intuitive nature of space-time; perhaps this view accommodates the Tgod hypothesis but it really is logically absurd.

The alternative is Egod. We avoid the impossible vision of imagining what God might have occupied himself with for an infinity of time, but there are new problems. First, how can God do anything at all? If time measures God, how can he make a decision to create anything? Cause and effect imply that a cause and its effect are separated by an interval of time, because the cause must precede its effect. Timeless implies stasis, that is, nothing can happen. Without the dimension of time, there is no way to separate events; everything happens at once. From the moment of creation, god witnesses everything in our universe instantaneously. This not only creates the initial moment but everything that will exist at any future time. If a timeless God knows of an event at x,y,z,t, then that event exists for God in the same sense as the present moment exists for us.

If god, in pre-eternity without time and space creates the universe, and immediately sees every point in the space-time of that universe as is implied by his omniscience, then how can you deny that he has created each of those points? Each point exists instantly as a direct result of the creation act. How can we deny that he responsible for the every horrible act done? The Twin Towers. The Inquisition. AIDS. How can we say that we are responsible for our actions when he himself created each of those actions in the very first instant of creation? If you accept the Egod hypothesis, there is no alternative to predestination. Regardless of how we view our actions as free choice, they are not. Our destiny is not merely inevitable; it is not just something that is bound to happen at some point in the future, it already exists because God created it and apprehends it. So does this mean that free will is an illusion, and that the quest for salvation is a scam? Sure seems that way. From the moment of creation, our salvation or damnation has been decided.

Would a benevolent god create one of his creatures existing in Hell in the future? It seems that's what Egod implies. It would seem that Egod has no point and we don't either as we cannot alter our ultimate destiny, so religion is essentially valueless. In fact, we'd be better off without it; why should we worry about a destiny we are powerless to alter? So really neither Tgod nor Egod make any sense at all. It's more logical to stand on the foundation of no god.

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24-06-2015, 08:11 AM
RE: List of logical contradictions in nature of the God of the Bible
(24-06-2015 05:33 AM)Learner Wrote:  How can a spaceless (without substance), timeless being interact with its creation?
How can a being be omnipresent without being present in space and in time (if God is timeless)?
How can an omnibenevolent being have a grand plan that requires evil?

How can a spaceless (without substance), timeless being interact with its creation? Magic
How can a being be omnipresent without being present in space and in time (if God is timeless)? Magic
How can an omnibenevolent being have a grand plan that requires evil? Magic Sorry. I would say that it can't and if it did, that being would be evil.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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25-06-2015, 09:49 AM
RE: List of logical contradictions in nature of the God of the Bible
I've never got this "Not bound by time" nonsense.

If God came Into time.. Spent 30 minutes here.. Then left time and came back 2 hours later. Then that's bound by time!
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25-06-2015, 10:06 AM
RE: List of logical contradictions in nature of the God of the Bible
(24-06-2015 06:41 AM)Learner Wrote:  
(24-06-2015 06:15 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Iron Chariots has some pages like that.

Unfogged, thank you! Looks like a great resource. In the "References" at the bottom of the Iron Chariots link, I found a link to a great-looking article "Incompatible-Properties Arguments: A Survey" on the Infidels website:

http://infidels.org/library/modern/theod...tible.html

That's kind of fun to see how these alleged abilities of god contradict one another. Another one I could see is immutability contrasted against god as a free agent, he would be on the railroad tracks of immutability unable to change.

Omniscience would also contradict free will, if you know everything, there is only the perfect choice to make and no other.

Free will implies making mistakes and changing your mind after learning something. That's an imperfect and not omniscient god, there goes two of his characteristics right there.

If god has no free will, then he is subject to something that controls his choices. What would that be? Super-god who is beyond the outside of spacetime which god resides? The super-supernatural god that created the supernatural god? Infinite regress......

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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