Living in an functionally atheistics society
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13-05-2013, 09:14 AM
RE: Living in an functionally atheistics society
(13-05-2013 09:10 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(13-05-2013 09:05 AM)Chas Wrote:  I'm tired of your ideological rants. You have nothing constructive to offer us, just the same tired state-is-violent-family-is-evil bullshit.

Got a plan? Not a someday plan, but a plan to improve things in the here and now?

Why do you think it is that you get so enraged as to mischaracterize my positions?

I have a plan, which I have shared and which is based on empirical evidence. That it makes you uncomfortable does not change that fact.

Your views don't enrage me. Your constant whining annoys me.
How have I mischaracterized your position?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-05-2013, 09:25 AM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2013 10:24 AM by Bows and Arrows.)
RE: Living in an functionally atheistics society
nevermind


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
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13-05-2013, 09:43 AM
RE: Living in an functionally atheistics society
(13-05-2013 09:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-05-2013 09:10 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Why do you think it is that you get so enraged as to mischaracterize my positions?

I have a plan, which I have shared and which is based on empirical evidence. That it makes you uncomfortable does not change that fact.

Your views don't enrage me. Your constant whining annoys me.
How have I mischaracterized your position?

I don't whine. I present my positions and I present evidence for them. That you see my comments as whining has nothing whatever to do with me. It's your perception, that manifests through your thought processes, which are based upon your experiences, your biases and your self interest. Not that we aren't all subject to the same. It's how we manage those perceptions that make a difference. To wit: You attack the person and I attack the arguments.

As for mischaracterizations, show me anywhere that I have ever said the family is evil. Just one spot. One sentence. That's all you need show me and then I will withdraw that accusation and issue a sincere apology to you.

If you can't, I could only hope to receive the same.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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13-05-2013, 10:14 AM
RE: Living in an functionally atheistics society
(13-05-2013 09:43 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(13-05-2013 09:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  Your views don't enrage me. Your constant whining annoys me.
How have I mischaracterized your position?

I don't whine. I present my positions and I present evidence for them. That you see my comments as whining has nothing whatever to do with me. It's your perception, that manifests through your thought processes, which are based upon your experiences, your biases and your self interest. Not that we aren't all subject to the same. It's how we manage those perceptions that make a difference. To wit: You attack the person and I attack the arguments.

As for mischaracterizations, show me anywhere that I have ever said the family is evil. Just one spot. One sentence. That's all you need show me and then I will withdraw that accusation and issue a sincere apology to you.

If you can't, I could only hope to receive the same.

You claim things are due to the violence of the state, the violence of the family, and so on without offering any alternative. That's just whining.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-05-2013, 12:57 PM
RE: Living in an functionally atheistics society
(13-05-2013 10:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  You claim things are due to the violence of the state, the violence of the family, and so on without offering any alternative. That's just whining.

You accused me of claiming the family to be evil. I've never said that. I have said there is violence in the family, which is an empirically demonstrable fact, and I've claimed the state is inherently violent, which is another empirically demonstrable fact. I have also repeatedly appealed to peaceful parenting as the solution that you consistently claim I have never provided. And, I've elaborated to one degree or another in a number of threads.

If you don't agree with my conclusions, then formulate a cogent, civil argument and we'll discuss it. I'm happy to change my positions if evidence contradicts with them.

If you won't do that, then continue with the ad homs and mischaracterizations.
As I've said before, you get what you give....

So how long have you been a supporter of child abuse, Chas?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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13-05-2013, 03:42 PM
RE: Living in an functionally atheistics society
(13-05-2013 12:57 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(13-05-2013 10:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  You claim things are due to the violence of the state, the violence of the family, and so on without offering any alternative. That's just whining.

You accused me of claiming the family to be evil. I've never said that. I have said there is violence in the family, which is an empirically demonstrable fact, and I've claimed the state is inherently violent, which is another empirically demonstrable fact. I have also repeatedly appealed to peaceful parenting as the solution that you consistently claim I have never provided. And, I've elaborated to one degree or another in a number of threads.

If you don't agree with my conclusions, then formulate a cogent, civil argument and we'll discuss it. I'm happy to change my positions if evidence contradicts with them.

If you won't do that, then continue with the ad homs and mischaracterizations.
As I've said before, you get what you give....

So how long have you been a supporter of child abuse, Chas?

I think you may be off the rails. I made no ad hominem attack.
We're done - you have complaints about 'the violence of the state' and offer no path for change, just some vision of Shangri La.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-05-2013, 03:59 PM
RE: Living in an functionally atheistics society
bbeljefe, I have stated before that I am very much in agreement with you that the state is evil (not exactly the word I would use but close, in my mind more like an unnecessary impediment to human life).

I would also point out that the state of Texas with apparently the most lax work place safety codes and no state fire code has the highest rates of industrial accidents in the country. This according to a recent article in the New York Times. The people of the state seem to relish the lack of control to the point that even the recent event in Weed TX does not seem to deter them. An event which I acknowledge has not been fully understood yet.

Absent the state, given the current circumstances of human society, many would be exposed to dangers that should be prevented. Not to mention the exploitation of non capitalists by capitalists to maximize their profits.

As I have, I think, finally convinced my anarcro syndicalist son (who has influenced me greatly) we must await many generations for a better organized society and are in the short and very long term obligated to resist the state when necessary and accept its presence when it serves a need.

Please, please, please do not say everything the state does is evil. Sometimes it is a necessary evil for the whole.
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13-05-2013, 04:15 PM
RE: Living in an functionally atheistics society
fmanh2, my apologies for the turn this thread has taken.

I was afraid that our intercourse would attract bbeljefe and it did.

I do agree that a country with or without a state religion that recognizes its obligations to all will be a better place to live.

By the way I want to spend a christmas season in Stockholm. Is this as crazy as some make it.
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13-05-2013, 05:58 PM
RE: Living in an functionally atheistics society
(13-05-2013 03:59 PM)JAH Wrote:  bbeljefe, I have stated before that I am very much in agreement with you that the state is evil (not exactly the word I would use but close, in my mind more like an unnecessary impediment to human life).

I agree that the state cannot be abandoned at this point in time. It is far too entrenched in the day to day lives of the poor and, frankly, the millions who work for it. This is (one reason) I don't support revolution of any kind.... or political action. To wit: If Ron Paul had become president and if, by the grace of God (LOL) he had been able to bring ALL US troups home... it would have collapsed the US economy. Why? Because these people need work and bringing them home won't bring the savings Paul was promising.... firing most of them would.

Quote:I would also point out that the state of Texas with apparently the most lax work place safety codes and no state fire code has the highest rates of industrial accidents in the country. This according to a recent article in the New York Times. The people of the state seem to relish the lack of control to the point that even the recent event in Weed TX does not seem to deter them. An event which I acknowledge has not been fully understood yet.

I spent 17 years in the electronics industry in Texas, selling, installing and servicing residential, commercial and industrial electronic systems... including fire detection systems. Texas follows the same national codes that all other states and municipalities I know of follow. The Texas Commission on Fire Protection is the state regulatory agency charged with the administration of Texas' fire codes and the National Fire Protection Agency is the standards making entity whose building and fire codes Texas enforces. Texas, like other states, may opt to not enforce certain of these codes but rest assured, there are fire myriad fire codes in Texas.

The problem isn't regulation and it's certainly not a lack thereof. The problem is corruption. One can have the best fire alarm regulations on the planet but if the Authority Having Jurisdiction (usually the fire marshall but sometimes even a volunteer fire chief) goes fishing with the guy who owns the fertilizer plant, there is a very good chance that he's not going to make an accurate and detailed bi annual inspection of the company's fire suppression and detection equipment.... if he ever even shows up and looks at any of it. Likewise with employment regs. If the state bureaucrat is on the take from a big company (which only happens in every state, in every industry, every day) then there is no guarantee that infractions will be addressed. In fact, quite the opposite will occur in most cases.

Further, through the corporate protection provided by the state, anytime an employee has a real claim of liability against his employer... the person or people who did him harm are shielded from liability by the state. Not to mention, in order to access the legal system, a person has to have either considerable financial resources or an "open and shut" case that will be taken on contingency. Of course, we also know that large corporations have access to the very best attorneys, who happen to golf with the judges and prosecutors who will be adjudicating your broken leg claim against XYZ corp. So good luck getting a fair and just settlement, unless you can manage to get the press to pay attention to your case.

Lastly, through insurance regulations, the state makes it legal for insurance companies to turn down a lot of just claims. It also makes it illegal for you to sue a company that misrepresented the policy you bought, so even though the agent said you had flood insurance, if it isn't in the legal document, there's nothing you can do about it. But even if you could prove the case.... you still have to access the state courts in order to do so.

Quote:Absent the state, given the current circumstances of human society, many would be exposed to dangers that should be prevented. Not to mention the exploitation of non capitalists by capitalists to maximize their profits.

Would this blind man be any better off if a capitalist had tazed him for no good reason? Would this widow feel better if a capitalist had broken down her door, murdered her husband and thrown her on the ground because he was trying to collect an insurance payment at the wrong house? Would a capitalist even bust down your door to collect an insurance payment?

Quote:As I have, I think, finally convinced my anarcro syndicalist son (who has influenced me greatly) we must await many generations for a better organized society and are in the short and very long term obligated to resist the state when necessary and accept its presence when it serves a need.

Please, please, please do not say everything the state does is evil. Sometimes it is a necessary evil for the whole.

The only needs the state serves are needs it has imposed upon others. Government, by its definition, has both a monopoly on and and obligation to use force against others. It is a vile, evil system of punitive and vengeful dictates, corruption and murder.

When the mob takes some of the money it has stolen and hands it over to charity, we don't say we need the mob. There is only one difference between what the mob does and what the state does and that's the euphemisms used to describe it.

So I'm sorry but I won't refrain from calling an evil thing evil, just because some some small good falls awash of its path of destruction once in a while.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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13-05-2013, 06:18 PM
RE: Living in an functionally atheistics society
bbeljefe, I agree with everything you said above. It is in my nature and it is in human nature. The state is an artificial construct intended to constrict humans much as religion is.

My argument is that we must live in what exists and comment on specifics in that context.

I might ask how many years or generations are required before the concept of the state may not be necessary. I will suggest very many.
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