Living in an functionally atheistics society
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13-05-2013, 06:31 PM
RE: Living in an functionally atheistics society
(13-05-2013 06:18 PM)JAH Wrote:  bbeljefe, I agree with everything you said above. It is in my nature and it is in human nature. The state is an artificial construct intended to constrict humans much as religion is.

My argument is that we must live in what exists and comment on specifics in that context.

I might ask how many years or generations are required before the concept of the state may not be necessary. I will suggest very many.

Well it's certain that we must live in what exists. I would no more argue that we have to act like we enjoy it than I would argue that a gay couple should pretend the laws against their marrying one another are just. For something to be changed, it must be commented on.

As for how long... who knows? From what I can gather, there are about 25 million peaceful parents in the US right now. That means possibly 75-100 million peaceful individuals in 50 years? I really don't know. I don't even know where the tipping point is... can a 51% majority of peaceful individuals end statism? Can 35%? Or will it take 80%?

Judging from historical moral movements such as the abolition of slavery... it could be 150 years.

We do have the internet now but then again... so do the statists. So all that can be done is to keep the arguments in the front of people's minds.... because people don't generally think about uncomfortable topics unless they are brought to their attention.

Which is why I choose to be such a pain in the ass. Tongue

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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19-05-2013, 12:15 PM
RE: Living in an functionally atheistics society
(13-05-2013 06:31 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(13-05-2013 06:18 PM)JAH Wrote:  bbeljefe, I agree with everything you said above. It is in my nature and it is in human nature. The state is an artificial construct intended to constrict humans much as religion is.

My argument is that we must live in what exists and comment on specifics in that context.

I might ask how many years or generations are required before the concept of the state may not be necessary. I will suggest very many.

Well it's certain that we must live in what exists. I would no more argue that we have to act like we enjoy it than I would argue that a gay couple should pretend the laws against their marrying one another are just. For something to be changed, it must be commented on.

As for how long... who knows? From what I can gather, there are about 25 million peaceful parents in the US right now. That means possibly 75-100 million peaceful individuals in 50 years? I really don't know. I don't even know where the tipping point is... can a 51% majority of peaceful individuals end statism? Can 35%? Or will it take 80%?

Judging from historical moral movements such as the abolition of slavery... it could be 150 years.

We do have the internet now but then again... so do the statists. So all that can be done is to keep the arguments in the front of people's minds.... because people don't generally think about uncomfortable topics unless they are brought to their attention.

Which is why I choose to be such a pain in the ass. Tongue

Quite frankly, you largely have the reasoning of the Spanish anarchist during the spanish war. They are no longer around. For a reason. Human are sociable animals, and we need some sort of common denominator in order to live our life's. The technology and trade you're talking about in your earlier posts doesn't comes around by happen stance. They come around due to strong judicial systems levelling the interest between parties, building of infrastructure (which you seem to take for granted), knowledge transfer in the form of education (think schools and universities), basic research that no single company would be able to muster the resources for (think LHC, space programs, genetic engineering). And when we are in need and discover that lump in our chest is cancer, or when we grow old and needy, the resources a of state suddenly comes in handy. A state where costs are shared on the individuals part of it always beats the insurance company. After all, the latter would make a bad deal in insuring the guy with hereditary disease. One things is blatantly sure; god wont help us. Nor will he help you. The only one ou can rely on when things goes awry is the compassion of your fellow man. On the whole a well built state with well thought out divisions of power plays an important roles in order to improve all of our lifes.

regards
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19-05-2013, 12:56 PM
RE: Living in an functionally atheistics society
(19-05-2013 12:15 PM)fmanh2 Wrote:  
(13-05-2013 06:31 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Well it's certain that we must live in what exists. I would no more argue that we have to act like we enjoy it than I would argue that a gay couple should pretend the laws against their marrying one another are just. For something to be changed, it must be commented on.

As for how long... who knows? From what I can gather, there are about 25 million peaceful parents in the US right now. That means possibly 75-100 million peaceful individuals in 50 years? I really don't know. I don't even know where the tipping point is... can a 51% majority of peaceful individuals end statism? Can 35%? Or will it take 80%?

Judging from historical moral movements such as the abolition of slavery... it could be 150 years.

We do have the internet now but then again... so do the statists. So all that can be done is to keep the arguments in the front of people's minds.... because people don't generally think about uncomfortable topics unless they are brought to their attention.

Which is why I choose to be such a pain in the ass. Tongue

Quite frankly, you largely have the reasoning of the Spanish anarchist during the spanish war. They are no longer around. For a reason. Human are sociable animals, and we need some sort of common denominator in order to live our life's. The technology and trade you're talking about in your earlier posts doesn't comes around by happen stance. They come around due to strong judicial systems levelling the interest between parties, building of infrastructure (which you seem to take for granted), knowledge transfer in the form of education (think schools and universities), basic research that no single company would be able to muster the resources for (think LHC, space programs, genetic engineering). And when we are in need and discover that lump in our chest is cancer, or when we grow old and needy, the resources a of state suddenly comes in handy. A state where costs are shared on the individuals part of it always beats the insurance company. After all, the latter would make a bad deal in insuring the guy with hereditary disease. One things is blatantly sure; god wont help us. Nor will he help you. The only one ou can rely on when things goes awry is the compassion of your fellow man. On the whole a well built state with well thought out divisions of power plays an important roles in order to improve all of our lifes.

regards

I don't know that I have the reasoning of dead people. But if so... so be it.

Those people aren't here any more because of violence, not because humans can't interact without a top down, hierarchical system of violence.

Ireland was an anarchy for about a thousand years... it did not crumble from internal chaos, it was overtaken by the violence of a nation state.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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