Locke
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08-08-2014, 01:23 AM
RE: Locke
Hi Locke, welcome to the forum.

Always good to have rational theists here.

As this is the Intro section I won't start a debate so I'll just point you in this direction http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...in-Atheism and ask, when you get your feet under the table, and if you feel you can provide any enlightenment, whether people like hbl are genuine and if so, what might have happened to them to make them think that way?

Just curious.

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08-08-2014, 02:06 AM
RE: Locke
I'll get back to you in a month once I've read through the 500 pages of heated debates.. hahah.

One thing I can say now is this:
" “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the people of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. When I say to the wicked, ‘You wicked person, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade them from their ways, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the wicked person to turn from their ways and they do not do so, they will die for their sin, though you yourself will be saved."
(Ezekiel 33:7-9)

The passage in context is God telling Ezekiel (his prophet) to warn the Israelites (his chosen people) to change their ways or deal with the consequences. The important thing I want to note is the responsibility of the watchman. This is one of God's people speaking to God's people, so the same as a Christian to another Christian. Christians have the responsibility to hold other Christians to a certain standard, pointing out their error in order to give them fair opportunity to change.
As far as outsiders, we have obligation to share the truth only with those who want it, and obligation to look for those who want it.. So if there's ever a Christian attacking atheism I just don't see the validation. Believe what you like.

Despite numerous gnostic sects and Pentecostals, prophecy in Scripture often just means teaching, or relaying God's message.. so every Christian technically has a responsibility as a prophet, and a responsibility to call other disciples back to the word of God, the Bible.

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08-08-2014, 02:24 AM
RE: Locke
Thanks very much.

I would try to explain that to hbl but I doubt he'd listen.

(08-08-2014 02:06 AM)Locke Wrote:  ... Christians have the responsibility to hold other Christians to a certain standard, pointing out their error in order to give them fair opportunity to change.
...

This bit explains the snooty, prying and prurient nature of the church ladies my parents generation bitched about.

And explains too, much of English literature and BBC costume drama.

Fun times.

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08-08-2014, 04:26 AM
RE: Locke
Welcome.
If what you say is true, you will not be a Christian for very long. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-08-2014, 08:07 AM
RE: Locke
Welcome aboard Smile

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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09-08-2014, 08:57 AM
RE: Locke
(08-08-2014 02:24 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Thanks very much.

I would try to explain that to hbl but I doubt he'd listen.

(08-08-2014 02:06 AM)Locke Wrote:  ... Christians have the responsibility to hold other Christians to a certain standard, pointing out their error in order to give them fair opportunity to change.
...

This bit explains the snooty, prying and prurient nature of the church ladies my parents generation bitched about.

That sounds terrible.. but I know what you're talking about. What I was referring to is a bit different. It's one thing for someone to invite themselves into your house and start prying about your personal life.. it's altogether another when they've built a friendship with you, shown you the evidence for God and the Bible over the course of several months or even years, and you've 'counted the cost', or conducted a cost-benefit analysis of whether or not being a Christian is a worthwhile endeavor in your opinion, you decide to become one, fully aware of how Scripture encourages mentor-mentee relationships, and you come to someone older and wiser and ask them to be your mentor, or come to a peer and ask them to keep you accountable to the standard of the Bible.
In that sense it's much more like joining a military, minus the contract.. in the Marine Corps and Navy we used to count our push-ups in 4-count, "One! Two! Three! Four!" being two push-ups, and the Gunnery Sgt. would yell, "One! Two! Three! Four! This is! What you! Asked! Four!"
Unlike a regular military, we don't exercise physical force:
"For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."
~ 2 Corinthians 10:3-5

The point is, it's voluntary, and you can bow out at any time. We don't nag each other, we fight alongside one another. I don't speak for the vast amount of churches that don't do it biblically, but rather abuse it.. probably what your parents experienced.

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09-08-2014, 09:14 AM
RE: Locke
(09-08-2014 08:57 AM)Locke Wrote:  ...
"For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world.
...

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.


(09-08-2014 08:57 AM)Locke Wrote:  ...
probably what your parents experienced.

Not really.

I was referring to the English, conservative, upper-middle class, judgmental, Sunday-hat brigade that my parents would ridicule when they thought I wasn't listening.

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09-08-2014, 12:36 PM (This post was last modified: 09-08-2014 12:41 PM by Locke.)
RE: Locke
Quote:
(09-08-2014 09:14 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(09-08-2014 08:57 AM)Locke Wrote:  ...
"For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world.
...

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

"32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it." ~ Matthew 10:32-36 (NIV)

This passage is speaking of two things; first, Jesus is telling his disciples to go and proclaim the gospel to people. Second, he is telling them that many people will reject the gospel. The message of the gospel is what Jesus brought, but people sometimes respond with anger, even violence. I had friends in other countries where Christianity is illegal whose own children have turned them in to be executed for their beliefs, or whose parents found out they were Christian and did likewise. When I became a Christian, my parents disowned me, my brother came to me, beat me down and put a gun to my head. They were irrationally angry at my decision, despite themselves professing Christianity. That's a case of a personal experience that you can't verify, and I get that. However, it was pretty strong proof to me that what the Bible says on these things is accurate, and the consistency of it for myself, one of my other brothers, and many other people I know (hundreds) shows me that it isn't entirely uncommon. Most people don't respond this way, but some do. I've had atheists get in my face, shove me or curse me out, but the truth is that, from my personal experience, the religious are the most aggressive.

Perhaps my family's response seems unrealistic to you, as it did to me.. but looking at Scriptures such as Ezekiel 33:30-32 along with John 3:17-21 helped it make more sense with what happened.
Yes, they are religious, but no, they don't follow the Scriptures (a stance that will never make sense to me, and I believe doesn't make any logical sense). However, their fear of being exposed was, evidently, enough for them to justify themselves by attacking me. I didn't hound them; it was simply that we both claimed to be Christian, but our lives looked radically different, because I lived by the Scriptures and they didn't.. my lifestyle proved them to be hypocrites.

The point of what Jesus said about bringing a sword is that the truth is more important than lying to people for the sake of keeping peace. From my understanding many atheists feel much the same when arguing for reason over superstition, and I would agree.
Quote:
(09-08-2014 08:57 AM)Locke Wrote:  ...
probably what your parents experienced.

Not really.

I was referring to the English, conservative, upper-middle class, judgmental, Sunday-hat brigade that my parents would ridicule when they thought I wasn't listening.

Yes, I was referring to them as well.. those are my parents Confused
Their arrogant misjudgment leads them to treat people in ways they don't deserve, and make other people's business their own. Looking down at others for living a certain way, yet doing the same themselves behind closed doors.
In other words, "having a form of godliness but denying its power." (2 Timothy 3:5)

Perhaps we're not talking about the same thing, but I do believe we are.

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11-08-2014, 02:08 PM
RE: Locke
Welcome! Do not mistake my question as a pointless jab. This is a sincere, inquisitive question. I ask nearly every believer this when they think somewhat parallel to your ideas: what sort of evidence have you used to justify your Christian belief? And do you assert Christian belief to be the absolute source of truth and salvation? And if so, why?

Like I said, this is a serious question, I'm not seeking for argument at this particular moment but rather for understanding.

"A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be."- Albert Einstein.

"We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special." Steven Hawking
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11-08-2014, 02:52 PM
RE: Locke
Welcome, kick back, listen to a few podcasts, read a few of the more mature debates, boxing ring area has a couple. You will find quite a few of us have an expansive knowledge base on religion and specifically christian, and would love to have an intelligent conversation with you. This is the introduction area so the proselytizing from either side is off limits. Laughat

I look forward to talking with you, and give you one nugget to sit on.....blind faith is beneath any intelligent person, as an ex-Xtian, I am very knowledgeable of the bible and more importantly, who wrote it......research, read, listen to podcasts, gain the knowledge that will help you solidify your belief in your religion of choice, not the knowledge of faith itself for that is belief in something without evidence, but in the religion itself. Becareful though, I also set out on the path of epistemology years ago and found that the more I learned of the fabrication, the pseudepigrapha, the very analogous nature of the bible, the less I believed, but that is a story for a different thread in the future Smile

In the meantime Welcome, relax, enjoy your stay. If you have any questions, just ask...

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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