Logan Clark Should Not Have Been Shot
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11-12-2016, 10:17 AM
RE: Logan Clark Should Not Have Been Shot
(11-12-2016 07:27 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Apparently the shooter was a school security guard (rather than a duty cop)? This is the kid with his two knives, neither of which he should've been carrying—considering their (maybe?) 8" blades.

[Image: Knife_wielding_teen_shot_by_outside_high_school.jpg]

Under the circumstances, I tend to believe the guard acted appropriately in a situation where a taser may not have worked. On the spur of the moment, this would be a very difficult call for a first-responder to make, so I don't think we can criticise the guard's decision one way or the other. None of us were there.

It also seems the kid's survived, so the issue has probably been overstated by a slavering press all too keen to diss LEOs.

The shooter was a police officer. I would be more sympathetic to him if there were no other people in the vicinity - it's just a little less worse than firing a weapon on a plane at 37,000 ft. This will piss off the usual supporters of shooting anything that makes you uncomfortable, but I think he should have tried other things first including verbal persuasion. He didn't try any of that. He allegedly ordered him to drop the knives and then shot him when he didn't. Cops have killed deaf people who were not able to follow instructions - so I have a problem with this approach.

There can be many valid arguments for why the officer may have been right. But not being there, not being in his shoes, I cannot see these as legitimate arguments against discussing the topic. How is anyone ever going to be held accountable?

Yes, police officers should be concerned for their lives too. But it's part of their job to take the risk on behalf of the rest of the population and I admire them for that. But I think that deadly force is employed too often and many times gratuitously by police forces in the US, because it is the lazy option and they can get away with it.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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11-12-2016, 10:45 AM
RE: Logan Clark Should Not Have Been Shot
(11-12-2016 10:05 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  There are so many things wrong with how this situation probably came about and how it could have been avoided.

I think back to the days when I was a teenager, moving to a new school, being picked on by the school bullies, being literally knocked out in a fight after school in front of my two younger brothers. Being afraid to go back. Not wanting my parents to know (my brothers told the what happened of course). My dad going to the school principal, the bullies given detention. Me still scared of going back.

I hate bullies and I feel sorry for all those scrawny kids like I used to be (5’10” and weighed 135 pounds).

The thing is I handled it differently than Logan, I befriended the biggest and strongest guys I could find and started lifting weights. It never occurred to me to take a knife or a gun to school.

Some could say that violence hadn’t permeated society back then how it has now but I grew up watching westerns and war movies, someone was always being shot and killed. I was exposed to violence and every week there was a fight to settle thing at the local field but it was always fisticuffs, no knives or guns.

Years before being beaten up in that particular school I was bullied in other schools, my family moved a lot, I didn’t know the language well, I was always the odd man out. On another occasion I kept faking being ill so I wouldn’t have to go to school, eventually my father found out I was scared to go because of a group of bullies that would wait for me after school on my walk back home. Dad’s solution was to pick me up one afternoon, had me point out who the kids were and then made me get out of the car. He then told the little gang that his son was going to fight every one of them but only one at a time and then he asked them who wanted to go first? I could not believe what I was hearing! But sure as shit all of them backed down and I didn’t have any more problems with them after that day.

Don’t know where I’m going with all this, maybe Logan’s parents should have stepped in long before Logan felt the need to handle it on his own. Maybe Logan’s parents could have taught him that violence was the last resort and how to handle bullying by first talking to them or the school principal. Maybe the principal and teachers at the school should have known what was going on and put a stop to the bullying. Maybe the school officer should have been given training on how to diffuse situations like this one without using deadly force and issued optional equipment to subdue a troubled kid, maybe he could have aimed at a leg to disable instead of going for the head.

Lots of maybes I know. In the end you had an armed kid threatening and lunging at other kids and at that moment what should have happened to avoid such an incident ever happening didn’t matter, you had the here and now, and who’s to say we would have reacted differently than the school officer under those circumstances? It is a tragedy for everyone involved, Logan, his parents, the officer, the other kids, the community...everyone.

Going forward this situation needs to be studied by other school officers and principals so that they can avoid a similar one happening at their school and conflict resolution needs to be part of any school curriculum even if all it calls for is reporting to an adult, be it a parent or a teacher.

I feel sorry for kids like Logan who feel that their only option to stop the bullying is to do something drastic, sometimes the bullied kid does kill someone, in many instances it is themselves. Whoever was picking on this kid needs to know that they were the catalyst and be held accountable or they’ll just keep doing it to the next Logan.

So, I guess the officer was not so much reckless as unprepared. Even then, I still think every shooting should be treated as an issue of grave concern.

I don't know about you, but the reason I am uneasy with officer involved shootings:

I realize the likelihood of that happening to me is very low. But if it happens, regardless of circumstances, I harbor no illusions and know it would be very easy, too easy perhaps, to justify it to the larger populace.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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11-12-2016, 11:27 AM
RE: Logan Clark Should Not Have Been Shot
(11-12-2016 10:45 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(11-12-2016 10:05 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  There are so many things wrong with how this situation probably came about and how it could have been avoided.

I think back to the days when I was a teenager, moving to a new school, being picked on by the school bullies, being literally knocked out in a fight after school in front of my two younger brothers. Being afraid to go back. Not wanting my parents to know (my brothers told the what happened of course). My dad going to the school principal, the bullies given detention. Me still scared of going back.

I hate bullies and I feel sorry for all those scrawny kids like I used to be (5’10” and weighed 135 pounds).

The thing is I handled it differently than Logan, I befriended the biggest and strongest guys I could find and started lifting weights. It never occurred to me to take a knife or a gun to school.

Some could say that violence hadn’t permeated society back then how it has now but I grew up watching westerns and war movies, someone was always being shot and killed. I was exposed to violence and every week there was a fight to settle thing at the local field but it was always fisticuffs, no knives or guns.

Years before being beaten up in that particular school I was bullied in other schools, my family moved a lot, I didn’t know the language well, I was always the odd man out. On another occasion I kept faking being ill so I wouldn’t have to go to school, eventually my father found out I was scared to go because of a group of bullies that would wait for me after school on my walk back home. Dad’s solution was to pick me up one afternoon, had me point out who the kids were and then made me get out of the car. He then told the little gang that his son was going to fight every one of them but only one at a time and then he asked them who wanted to go first? I could not believe what I was hearing! But sure as shit all of them backed down and I didn’t have any more problems with them after that day.

Don’t know where I’m going with all this, maybe Logan’s parents should have stepped in long before Logan felt the need to handle it on his own. Maybe Logan’s parents could have taught him that violence was the last resort and how to handle bullying by first talking to them or the school principal. Maybe the principal and teachers at the school should have known what was going on and put a stop to the bullying. Maybe the school officer should have been given training on how to diffuse situations like this one without using deadly force and issued optional equipment to subdue a troubled kid, maybe he could have aimed at a leg to disable instead of going for the head.

Lots of maybes I know. In the end you had an armed kid threatening and lunging at other kids and at that moment what should have happened to avoid such an incident ever happening didn’t matter, you had the here and now, and who’s to say we would have reacted differently than the school officer under those circumstances? It is a tragedy for everyone involved, Logan, his parents, the officer, the other kids, the community...everyone.

Going forward this situation needs to be studied by other school officers and principals so that they can avoid a similar one happening at their school and conflict resolution needs to be part of any school curriculum even if all it calls for is reporting to an adult, be it a parent or a teacher.

I feel sorry for kids like Logan who feel that their only option to stop the bullying is to do something drastic, sometimes the bullied kid does kill someone, in many instances it is themselves. Whoever was picking on this kid needs to know that they were the catalyst and be held accountable or they’ll just keep doing it to the next Logan.

So, I guess the officer was not so much reckless as unprepared. Even then, I still think every shooting should be treated as an issue of grave concern.

I don't know about you, but the reason I am uneasy with officer involved shootings:

I realize the likelihood of that happening to me is very low. But if it happens, regardless of circumstances, I harbor no illusions and know it would be very easy, too easy perhaps, to justify it to the larger populace.

I understand what you're saying but my comments in this instance should not be extrapolated to every situation.

If you or I had been the one wielding the knives under the same circumstance I suspect the results would have been similar.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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13-12-2016, 10:33 AM
RE: Logan Clark Should Not Have Been Shot
I know this thread has been idle a few days, but I wanted to clear up my basic opinion on this...

I am not addressing whether or not shooting the kid was justified. That is well beyond my expertise to determine and highly dependent on circumstances that are rarely readily apparent in the videos we see.

My concern is whether firing his weapon under those circumstances posed more of a danger to the kids in the area than did the kid with the knives. Personally, keeping in mind that I am not the smartest kid on the block, I would have taken the risk of attempting to subdue the kid without firing my weapon because I would rather risk severe injury or even death to myself than to have to live with having accidentally killed an innocent bystander. Maybe that makes me dumb, but that is just how I evaluate this situation.

I just wanted to let you know that I love you even though you aren't naked right now. Heart
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13-12-2016, 11:14 AM
RE: Logan Clark Should Not Have Been Shot
(13-12-2016 10:33 AM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  I know this thread has been idle a few days, but I wanted to clear up my basic opinion on this...

I am not addressing whether or not shooting the kid was justified. That is well beyond my expertise to determine and highly dependent on circumstances that are rarely readily apparent in the videos we see.

My concern is whether firing his weapon under those circumstances posed more of a danger to the kids in the area than did the kid with the knives. Personally, keeping in mind that I am not the smartest kid on the block, I would have taken the risk of attempting to subdue the kid without firing my weapon because I would rather risk severe injury or even death to myself than to have to live with having accidentally killed an innocent bystander. Maybe that makes me dumb, but that is just how I evaluate this situation.

The armchair quarterbacks can watch a video from a SPOV - and make an absolute determination of a risk determination. In fact - they don't need the video - as they've already formed their opinion.

Me - I'd need some information.

1. How good is the shooter?
2. At what distance?
3. What is the weapon, and type of ammo?

If you don't have those quantified and verified - you're talking out your ass.

If it's under 30 feet with the guy I carry and shoot regularly with the ammo I use - it's a very safe bet I'm going to hit an aggressor and not cause any collateral damage. I've shot thousands of rounds through this weapon over a period of over 12 or 13 years.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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13-12-2016, 02:23 PM
RE: Logan Clark Should Not Have Been Shot
(13-12-2016 11:14 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(13-12-2016 10:33 AM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  I know this thread has been idle a few days, but I wanted to clear up my basic opinion on this...

I am not addressing whether or not shooting the kid was justified. That is well beyond my expertise to determine and highly dependent on circumstances that are rarely readily apparent in the videos we see.

My concern is whether firing his weapon under those circumstances posed more of a danger to the kids in the area than did the kid with the knives. Personally, keeping in mind that I am not the smartest kid on the block, I would have taken the risk of attempting to subdue the kid without firing my weapon because I would rather risk severe injury or even death to myself than to have to live with having accidentally killed an innocent bystander. Maybe that makes me dumb, but that is just how I evaluate this situation.

The armchair quarterbacks can watch a video from a SPOV - and make an absolute determination of a risk determination. In fact - they don't need the video - as they've already formed their opinion.

Me - I'd need some information.

1. How good is the shooter?
2. At what distance?
3. What is the weapon, and type of ammo?

If you don't have those quantified and verified - you're talking out your ass.

If it's under 30 feet with the guy I carry and shoot regularly with the ammo I use - it's a very safe bet I'm going to hit an aggressor and not cause any collateral damage. I've shot thousands of rounds through this weapon over a period of over 12 or 13 years.

Do you happen to know what the marksmanship requirements are for a typical police force? Are they as well or similarly trained as you? I'm just curious.

#sigh
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13-12-2016, 06:36 PM
RE: Logan Clark Should Not Have Been Shot
(13-12-2016 02:23 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(13-12-2016 11:14 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  The armchair quarterbacks can watch a video from a SPOV - and make an absolute determination of a risk determination. In fact - they don't need the video - as they've already formed their opinion.

Me - I'd need some information.

1. How good is the shooter?
2. At what distance?
3. What is the weapon, and type of ammo?

If you don't have those quantified and verified - you're talking out your ass.

If it's under 30 feet with the guy I carry and shoot regularly with the ammo I use - it's a very safe bet I'm going to hit an aggressor and not cause any collateral damage. I've shot thousands of rounds through this weapon over a period of over 12 or 13 years.

Do you happen to know what the marksmanship requirements are for a typical police force? Are they as well or similarly trained as you? I'm just curious.

A few years ago I did a fair amount of shooting with some of our county sheriff deputies at my range here at the house.

I consistently shot better scores under pretty much all the time.

Of course - I was shooting way more than them. Most of them only shot on average only a few hundred rounds a year. I shot more than that every week.

Most officers are happy to just qualify. Few of them shot as recreation.

I'm sure there's departments where they're much more aggressive about keeping the officer's marksmanship up.....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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