Logic Proof for God
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25-03-2015, 11:18 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(18-03-2015 12:54 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(18-03-2015 10:46 AM)dimaniac Wrote:  God can violate whatever he wants since he created all rules including logic

You've already conceded that the universe is eternal. Therefore it didn't need a creator. It's always existed.

If God created logic then why is there no mention of it in the Bible?

If the Bible had to mention every single thing in existence...it'd be an all too cumbersome book, a near infinity of pages.
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25-03-2015, 11:44 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(18-03-2015 10:56 AM)JDog554 Wrote:  
(18-03-2015 10:46 AM)dimaniac Wrote:  God can violate whatever he wants since he created all rules including logic

Then what logic did God have when he created everything? He had to have reason to create the things he created but how could he if he didn't have logic until he created it and also what logic did he have to create logic?

(18-03-2015 10:49 AM)dimaniac Wrote:  I think that's natural conclusion for any theist. Something can't exist on its own.

Because most theist are only allowed to believe what is shoved into their brains by pastors and their beliefs.

This is beyond my proof, you guys are unraveling some new concepts here. If God did not create logic, then logic would have to be an intrinsic part of God, not a product of God. If God did create logic, perhaps all he'd need is imagination (a mind) to make up some rules. Alternately, If God did create logic, it could require some other form of logic incompatible to our minds and not present in this universe. I cannot conceive of logic having a beginning or end. Being the fabric of existence, it's necessarily eternal.
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25-03-2015, 11:44 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
Hello! Big Grin

(25-03-2015 11:12 PM)kselfri Wrote:  When I use "logic" in the proof, I'm not referring to study of reasoning, like a college course. I'm referring to undeniable laws, which need no observation to be substantiated. You don't need to go outside and observe things like "if A=B and B=c, then A=c", or "2+2=4". Mathematics is included here also as logic, it is the logic of how quantities relate to each other. Mathematics is immaterial, it's laws and theorems can exist independently of the physical world, but the physical world cannot exist & behave independently of mathematics.

I can draw an analogy with a programming language vs. programs. The programming language makes up the the laws which the program must obey. If the programming language were the logic, then the program is the physical world. The language can exist w/o the program, but the program cannot exist w/o the language.

*Holds up hand*

The thing is... the 'laws' you're now talking about... aren't 'Logic'. They are descriptions and best estimates of what we think is happening when we look at/observe certain phenomena(Do-doo-de-doodooo)

Again 'Mathematics' is something derived from the natural world. Yes.. a rock sitting on the sand next to another rock can be 'counted'. In the end, though, they are just rocks.

Mathematics, language, 'laws' are all things that derive from within the brain and (I'm guessing) the way ours wants to make patterns out of everything.

If, as you say, maths and 'logic' can exist outside of the human brain? Then you can point to them, yes? You can demonstrate some free standing, on it's/their own laws? Or perhaps link to a picture of 'Maths in the wild'?

(25-03-2015 11:15 PM)kselfri Wrote:  What empirical evidence would you accept?

An internet link would be fine. Smile

(25-03-2015 11:15 PM)kselfri Wrote:  Do you reject ALL things that don't have empirical evidence?

No... I totally enjoy reading the books of Terry Pratchett, Ann Mcaffery etc.

All good science and fantasy literary works, but in no real way beholden to reality.

Much cheers to all.
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25-03-2015, 11:47 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(25-03-2015 11:18 PM)kselfri Wrote:  If the Bible had to mention every single thing in existence...it'd be an all too cumbersome book, a near infinity of pages.

I see, so God included just the essentials, like proper ways to dress, killing people for picking up sticks on the sabbath. No need to include all that boring logic stuff, or how to properly treat diseases (which God created anyway, so I guess, why *would* he tell us how to treat them?), or how to make a decent system of government, or information about engineering.

No, proper ways to kill animals to give God the glory, boasting accounts of numbers of war dead in forgotten conflicts, misogynism and homophobia, and countless onerous rules for how you must live your life, these are more important to God, the mighty creator of the universe.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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26-03-2015, 12:09 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
Oh how delightfully quaint this again. Popcorn

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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26-03-2015, 12:12 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(18-03-2015 09:54 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 11:20 AM)kselfri Wrote:  1) Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2) Logic is thought.
3) Thought only comes from a mind.
Therefore, a mind created the universe.

Premise #2 could use some explanation, so I'll add the following:
Logic, in its various forms (including mathematics) has been something we discover, not something invented by man. It is not matter or energy. It does not require any dimensions in order to exist, and can exist outside the universe. What else is left for it to be, except thought?

First, we do not know that logic "exists" throughout the universe (I would use the word apply here, since logic is not a tangible thing). This alone breaks the proof, but since it's a rather safe assumption I'll let you have it.
Secondly, logic is thought. Correct.
Thirdly, thought does come from the mind. Correct.
Lastly, your conclusion just came out of nowhere. Using your explanation, we have discovered how to think and how the universe works but that does not mean we affected the things we learned about. For example: the earth rotates around the sun on an axis. If we never figured this out, would the earth stop its rotation? No. Minds do not affect the universe, only an organism's perception of the universe.

You're the 1st I've seen that's accepted all the premises but rejected the conclusion. The conclusion was not intended to posit human mind over matter. The logic is present throughout the universe because a mind created it, that of God. You could say that the logic present throughout the universe is evidence of the mind that created it.
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26-03-2015, 12:17 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(25-03-2015 11:44 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Hello! Big Grin

(25-03-2015 11:12 PM)kselfri Wrote:  When I use "logic" in the proof, I'm not referring to study of reasoning, like a college course. I'm referring to undeniable laws, which need no observation to be substantiated. You don't need to go outside and observe things like "if A=B and B=c, then A=c", or "2+2=4". Mathematics is included here also as logic, it is the logic of how quantities relate to each other. Mathematics is immaterial, it's laws and theorems can exist independently of the physical world, but the physical world cannot exist & behave independently of mathematics.

I can draw an analogy with a programming language vs. programs. The programming language makes up the the laws which the program must obey. If the programming language were the logic, then the program is the physical world. The language can exist w/o the program, but the program cannot exist w/o the language.

*Holds up hand*

The thing is... the 'laws' you're now talking about... aren't 'Logic'. They are descriptions and best estimates of what we think is happening when we look at/observe certain phenomena(Do-doo-de-doodooo)

Again 'Mathematics' is something derived from the natural world. Yes.. a rock sitting on the sand next to another rock can be 'counted'. In the end, though, they are just rocks.

Mathematics, language, 'laws' are all things that derive from within the brain and (I'm guessing) the way ours wants to make patterns out of everything.

If, as you say, maths and 'logic' can exist outside of the human brain? Then you can point to them, yes? You can demonstrate some free standing, on it's/their own laws? Or perhaps link to a picture of 'Maths in the wild'?

(25-03-2015 11:15 PM)kselfri Wrote:  What empirical evidence would you accept?

An internet link would be fine. Smile

(25-03-2015 11:15 PM)kselfri Wrote:  Do you reject ALL things that don't have empirical evidence?

No... I totally enjoy reading the books of Terry Pratchett, Ann Mcaffery etc.

All good science and fantasy literary works, but in no real way beholden to reality.

Much cheers to all.

How is "A=B and B=c, then A=c" derived from the natural world?
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26-03-2015, 12:26 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(26-03-2015 12:17 AM)kselfri Wrote:  How is "A=B and B=c, then A=c" derived from the natural world?

Because what you've posted is all just 'symbols'. The pattern of language.

I'm sure if MetazoaZeke came along and gave us a line of Kanjii (Hope I'm spelling both the name and the nomenclature right Blush )

Neither of us would make sense of the patterns glowing upon the screen.

That we can understand the reality around us is not indicative of a surrounding reality that understands us.
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26-03-2015, 12:35 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
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26-03-2015, 12:49 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(26-03-2015 12:35 AM)kselfri Wrote:  The fact the the universe behaves in accordance with mathematics (physics is mostly mathematics) and has been doing so before we came along, rules out that math is our invention.

You got it backwards. Universe follows rules, sure. We don't know what those rules are. Our maths seems to describe pretty well what happens fairly often, but fails a lot of the time too. We invent maths to try to describe the rules that the universe follows, capisce? Rules come first, from universe, mathematical description comes from us.

Universe has no obligation to follow rules at all, fact that it does is surprising. Well, maybe not so bad - universe which didn't follow a good set of rules wouldn't develop intelligent life to be surprised how good the rules are.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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