Logic Proof for God
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
26-03-2015, 03:11 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(25-03-2015 11:44 PM)kselfri Wrote:  
(18-03-2015 10:56 AM)JDog554 Wrote:  Then what logic did God have when he created everything? He had to have reason to create the things he created but how could he if he didn't have logic until he created it and also what logic did he have to create logic?


Because most theist are only allowed to believe what is shoved into their brains by pastors and their beliefs.

This is beyond my proof, you guys are unraveling some new concepts here. If God did not create logic, then logic would have to be an intrinsic part of God, not a product of God. If God did create logic, perhaps all he'd need is imagination (a mind) to make up some rules. Alternately, If God did create logic, it could require some other form of logic incompatible to our minds and not present in this universe.

logic is a process of perception as a result of our brains functioning and thats it
the rules in logic are arbitrary as no one is under any obligation ot follow them instead of whatever rules they prefer............... the only reason we have a standard set of rules is because we wouldn't be able to understand the others reasoning any other way

logic can't exist without a physical brain to accommodate that very process and there is no indication of it being any other way
a mind also requires a physical brain

Quote: I cannot conceive of logic having a beginning or end. Being the fabric of existence, it's necessarily eternal.

all you said here is "I don't know a how this stuff works or occurs therefore whatever I say outweighs people who spent years studying it and have a better understanding of it "
just because you can think of it existing in any other way doesn't mean there is no other way for it to exist

its is NOT the fabric of the universe or anything else for that matter, its just shit that goes on in our brains till we die

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Ace's post
26-03-2015, 03:24 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(25-03-2015 10:33 PM)kselfri Wrote:  The counter-intuitiveness of QM or our lack of understanding of the underpinnings of QM is not a measure of the existence logic itself. Some of the oddities of QM may be due to interactions with dimensions other than 4 dimensional space-time. These non-observable interactions are "hidden", thus appearing illogical. Quantum entangled particles aren't completely random. The state of one may not be known initially, but once one is measured and known, the other coupled particle's state is known.

And does any of that seem logical? Why do you think scientists were baffled when they first encountered QM events? Because QM itself is illogical.

(25-03-2015 10:33 PM)kselfri Wrote:  Additionally, statistics is still based on mathematical laws.

By your definition of logic, mathematics isn't logical. Mathematics is a system of definitions used for various purposes. You could easily say 1+1=10, if you're using binary, and it'd be a correct equation. You could say 7+3 = A, and it'd still be correct. In other words, depending on the system you use, the equation changes. If this were logic, it couldn't do this.
Besides, ever heard of results that prove the number of multiplicands of two is the same as the number of multiplicands of three (or any other number, for that fact)? Does this seem logical? Because it's not. But it can be proven with mathematics.

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-03-2015, 05:58 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(26-03-2015 12:12 AM)kselfri Wrote:  
(18-03-2015 09:54 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  First, we do not know that logic "exists" throughout the universe (I would use the word apply here, since logic is not a tangible thing). This alone breaks the proof, but since it's a rather safe assumption I'll let you have it.
Secondly, logic is thought. Correct.
Thirdly, thought does come from the mind. Correct.
Lastly, your conclusion just came out of nowhere. Using your explanation, we have discovered how to think and how the universe works but that does not mean we affected the things we learned about. For example: the earth rotates around the sun on an axis. If we never figured this out, would the earth stop its rotation? No. Minds do not affect the universe, only an organism's perception of the universe.

You're the 1st I've seen that's accepted all the premises but rejected the conclusion. The conclusion was not intended to posit human mind over matter. The logic is present throughout the universe because a mind created it, that of God. You could say that the logic present throughout the universe is evidence of the mind that created it.

You could say it, but you can't support it. How is logic present throughout the universe? How is logic present anywhere but in our minds?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Chas's post
26-03-2015, 06:54 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(17-03-2015 08:55 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 11:20 AM)kselfri Wrote:  1) Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2) Logic is thought.
3) Thought only comes from a mind.
Therefore, a mind created the universe.

This is a simple equivocation fallacy[1]. Under (1) you are referring to the universe behaving in a consistent manner that can be comprehended by a mind. In (2) and (3) you are referring to a process of a mind operating: The process of comprehending the universe. These premises do not use "logic" in the same sense. The meaning of "logic" is different in the two sets of premises, therefore the conclusion is not proven.

Rewording we have:
1) The universe operates in a comprehensible manner
2+3) Comprehension is a process of the mind
Therefore, a mind created the universe.

You can see this doesn't hold up.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation

(26-03-2015 12:12 AM)kselfri Wrote:  
(18-03-2015 09:54 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  ... Lastly, your conclusion just came out of nowhere. ...

You're the 1st I've seen that's accepted all the premises but rejected the conclusion. The conclusion was not intended to posit human mind over matter. The logic is present throughout the universe because a mind created it, that of God. You could say that the logic present throughout the universe is evidence of the mind that created it.

Not the first Wink

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-03-2015, 08:31 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 11:20 AM)kselfri Wrote:  1) Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2) Logic is thought.
3) Thought only comes from a mind.
Therefore, a mind created the universe.

Premise #2 could use some explanation, so I'll add the following:
Logic, in its various forms (including mathematics) has been something we discover, not something invented by man. It is not matter or energy. It does not require any dimensions in order to exist, and can exist outside the universe. What else is left for it to be, except thought?

Logical thought proves your mind exists. End.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-03-2015, 11:07 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 11:20 AM)kselfri Wrote:  1) Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2) Logic is thought.
3) Thought only comes from a mind.
Therefore, a mind created the universe.

Premise #2 could use some explanation, so I'll add the following:
Logic, in its various forms (including mathematics) has been something we discover, not something invented by man. It is not matter or energy. It does not require any dimensions in order to exist, and can exist outside the universe. What else is left for it to be, except thought?

1) Logic exists.
2 ) Logic is understood by humans via thought.
3) Thought is irrelevant in terms of the existence of logic.
Therefore, logic tells us nothing about a mind involvement in the creation of the universe.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Impulse's post
26-03-2015, 12:01 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
Your first premise is completely off. Logic is not a tangible thing, and cannot be "found". Logic is simply in our heads.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-03-2015, 12:01 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(25-03-2015 05:58 PM)kselfri Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 11:32 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  How do you know logic exists everywhere? Can you prove that? These logical syllogisms require the first premise be undeniably true. Yours isn't.

How is logic thought? It doesn't equal thought. Making some huge leaps here. These require the second premise be true. Yours isn't.

Hence, the conclusion is flawed.

Could you travel to some far corner of the universe where "if A=B and B=C, then A=C" is not true? There's ample empirical evidence that the rules of logic hold true everywhere, and no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Perhaps you can accept logic is a product of thought?

There is a difference between logic able to be applied everywhere and logic existing everywhere. Logic does not exist outside the bounds of human thought.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-03-2015, 01:04 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad.
Are you sure your circuits are registering correctly? Your ears are green.

-Spock
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Drunkin Druid's post
26-03-2015, 04:21 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(25-03-2015 11:12 PM)kselfri Wrote:  
(18-03-2015 03:27 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  But... logic is not a thing, it does not exist , it is a discipline. As the definition says it's a the use and study of valid reasoning.

Universe doesn't come from logic . logic comes from (observing and valid reasoning of) the Universe , obviously this is why it is applicable (or like the OP says "exists " ) everywhere in the Universe, because that is the only way possible.

When I use "logic" in the proof, I'm not referring to study of reasoning, like a college course. I'm referring to undeniable laws, which need no observation to be substantiated. You don't need to go outside and observe things like "if A=B and B=c, then A=c", or "2+2=4". Mathematics is included here also as logic, it is the logic of how quantities relate to each other. Mathematics is immaterial, it's laws and theorems can exist independently of the physical world, but the physical world cannot exist & behave independently of mathematics.

I can draw an analogy with a programming language vs. programs. The programming language makes up the the laws which the program must obey. If the programming language were the logic, then the program is the physical world. The language can exist w/o the program, but the program cannot exist w/o the language.

Yeah, I can see where the problem with your reasoning comes from...

You think that because "if A=B and B=C, then A=C" holds true everywhere in the universe there has to be some third party that provided that rule ( and all other rules and laws and logic and math...) so the universe can exist in a shape that it does, right?
Basically, you think that "logic" is a cause and universe is an effect .

It is actually the other way around.

What you obviously fail to wrap your head around is that the mechanisms of the universe are not predetermined, it is just that they have to work in some way, and all the logic and math and laws is just our observing and recognizing ways in which universe works.

If things were different then the logic would be different, it's not that things couldn't be different because logic doesn't allow them to be different. Things could be different but then universe would be different and that's it.

. . . ................................ ......................................... . [Image: 2dsmnow.gif] Eat at Joe's
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Slowminded's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: