Logic Proof for God
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06-04-2015, 11:17 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 01:23 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 11:20 AM)kselfri Wrote:  1) Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2) Logic is thought.
3) Thought only comes from a mind.
Therefore, a mind created the universe.

Premise #2 could use some explanation, so I'll add the following:
Logic, in its various forms (including mathematics) has been something we discover, not something invented by man. It is not matter or energy. It does not require any dimensions in order to exist, and can exist outside the universe. What else is left for it to be, except thought?

Not even close. Logic is a method of organizing and validating knowledge, not an "immaterial entity". It does not exist anywhere but in the Human mind. It is necessitated by the way our brains work. You see we are not omniscient nor infallible so we we need a way to validate our conclusions. Logic is a method of adhering to reality by keeping our concepts tied to percepts. It has as its root the principle of the primacy of existence. This principle states that the things that exist, exist and are what they are and do what they do independent of any conscious activity. This is the objective orientation of the relationship between a conscious subject and its objects. This is what we observe in all cases. The objects of consciousness do not conform to the subject of consciousness. In all cases in every kind of consciousness that can be observed this is the relationship we find between a conscious subject and its objects.

The God belief affirms the opposite. It affirms a primacy of consciousness. This states that the objects of consciousness do conform to the subject and do not obtain independently of the conscious activity which perceives them. On this view, reality is the product of consciousness and this is precisely what theism affirms. So not only can you not prove God from the existence of logic, the god belief contradicts the very principles that logic rests on, the primacy of existence. No where do we observe a consciousness which enjoys primacy over its objects. No where. There is no alternative but to imagine it. But the imaginary is not real and does not actually exist. God is indistinguishable from something that is merely imaginary. Therefore it does not actually exist. You see how easy it is to prove that gods do not actually exist? If you think I haven't then please refute me by showing how gods are distinguishable, objectively, from something that is merely imaginary.

I see a lot of theist refer to logic as "immaterial". That tells us what it is not but not what it is. Logic is conceptual and therefore is a product of the conceptual faculty, which is very much this world. It is dependent on this world in several ways. First, it is an attribute of the mind and hence the conceptual faculty is biological in nature. In all cases it is dependent on a brain and sense organs. Unless you can point to an example of a consciousness without a brain and sense organs then There is no reason to believe that logic exists everywhere in the universe and beyond. This consciousness that you say created the universe, where does it exist and what are its means of awareness? If it doesn't have a brain and sense organs, then this commits the fallacy of the stolen concept by affirming consciousness without any means.

Secondly, consciousness is consciousness of an object, of something. A consciousness without objects is a contradiction. So consciousness need not only a brain and sense organs but something to be conscious of. If a consciousness created everything distinct from itself, what was it conscious of in the beginning before it created everything? Blank out. This commits the fallacy of the stolen concept.

You might say that it was conscious of itself before it created anything. This doesn't fly either. In all cases that we can observe, consciousness is an action, not an entity. So before consciousness could be conscious of itself it would have to be conscious of something other than itself. The proposition of a consciousness conscious only of itself commits the fallacy of pure self reference. A consciousness which references only its own referencing.

Thirdly, does your god exist? If so then you haven't made any progress in explaining existence since you are referring to something that exists as the cause of existence.

In every way possible, the idea of a god clashes with what we observe in reality. Now either reality isn't real or our consciousness is not valid. But if reality isn't real then there is no such thing as logic and if our consciousness is invalid then we could have no knowledge including knowledge of a God. Your argument simply falls apart in stolen concepts and contradictions.

I would like to ask you to point to me where the Bible mentions logic. Theists constantly point to the fact that only their world view can "account" for logic but I can not find one mention of it in the bible. And since logic is conceptual in nature, I'd like to ask what is the distinctive theistic theory of concepts?

In fact I'd like to know where the Bible discusses any of the following:

1. What is a concept?

2. How are concepts formed?

3. How are they validated?

4. What is the relationship between a concept and reality?

I'd like you to tell me book, chapter and verse where these questions are answered in the Bible. If you didn't get your concept of logic from the Bible then you are "leaning on your own understanding" which the Bible tells you not to do.

You're just screwed no matter how you look at it.

"Logic is a method of organizing and validating knowledge, not an "immaterial entity". It does not exist anywhere but in the Human mind."

The universe has been following mathematics/logic well before humans came into being (the planets have been traveling in ellipses for a long time). Max Tegmark does a better job of explain this than I do:

"I argue that our physical world not only is described by mathematics, but that it is mathematics: a mathematical structure, to be precise."
Max Tegmark
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...h-excerpt/
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06-04-2015, 11:22 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(26-03-2015 03:11 AM)Ace Wrote:  
(25-03-2015 11:44 PM)kselfri Wrote:  This is beyond my proof, you guys are unraveling some new concepts here. If God did not create logic, then logic would have to be an intrinsic part of God, not a product of God. If God did create logic, perhaps all he'd need is imagination (a mind) to make up some rules. Alternately, If God did create logic, it could require some other form of logic incompatible to our minds and not present in this universe.

logic is a process of perception as a result of our brains functioning and thats it
the rules in logic are arbitrary as no one is under any obligation ot follow them instead of whatever rules they prefer............... the only reason we have a standard set of rules is because we wouldn't be able to understand the others reasoning any other way

logic can't exist without a physical brain to accommodate that very process and there is no indication of it being any other way
a mind also requires a physical brain

Quote: I cannot conceive of logic having a beginning or end. Being the fabric of existence, it's necessarily eternal.

all you said here is "I don't know a how this stuff works or occurs therefore whatever I say outweighs people who spent years studying it and have a better understanding of it "
just because you can think of it existing in any other way doesn't mean there is no other way for it to exist

its is NOT the fabric of the universe or anything else for that matter, its just shit that goes on in our brains till we die

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

"Logic is a method of organizing and validating knowledge, not an "immaterial entity". It does not exist anywhere but in the Human mind."

This is a better explanation of what I'm trying to say regarding logic/math & it being the fabric of existence:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...h-excerpt/
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06-04-2015, 11:24 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 11:17 AM)kselfri Wrote:  The universe has been following mathematics/logic well before humans came into being (the planets have been traveling in ellipses for a long time).

No, the universe has been following predictable patterns that can be encoded and expressed as rules of logic and/or mathematics for a long time. Those patterns are simple expressions of constants, nothing more. They certainly don't require a mind to create them... which is another problem with your initial argument, which is that you never once demonstrate that the physical expressions of logical descriptions aren't naturally occurring. You just assume that based on the fact that logic is conceptual, but the problem there is that you're now asserting that a mind had to create logic in the universe, while using physical effects as an example, and you've no proof whatsoever that the logic that exists in the mind can effect the physical world like that, because it can't. Logic describes what happens in the physical world, it doesn't influence it.
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06-04-2015, 11:26 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(25-03-2015 11:44 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Hello! Big Grin

(25-03-2015 11:12 PM)kselfri Wrote:  When I use "logic" in the proof, I'm not referring to study of reasoning, like a college course. I'm referring to undeniable laws, which need no observation to be substantiated. You don't need to go outside and observe things like "if A=B and B=c, then A=c", or "2+2=4". Mathematics is included here also as logic, it is the logic of how quantities relate to each other. Mathematics is immaterial, it's laws and theorems can exist independently of the physical world, but the physical world cannot exist & behave independently of mathematics.

I can draw an analogy with a programming language vs. programs. The programming language makes up the the laws which the program must obey. If the programming language were the logic, then the program is the physical world. The language can exist w/o the program, but the program cannot exist w/o the language.

*Holds up hand*

The thing is... the 'laws' you're now talking about... aren't 'Logic'. They are descriptions and best estimates of what we think is happening when we look at/observe certain phenomena(Do-doo-de-doodooo)

Again 'Mathematics' is something derived from the natural world. Yes.. a rock sitting on the sand next to another rock can be 'counted'. In the end, though, they are just rocks.

Mathematics, language, 'laws' are all things that derive from within the brain and (I'm guessing) the way ours wants to make patterns out of everything.

If, as you say, maths and 'logic' can exist outside of the human brain? Then you can point to them, yes? You can demonstrate some free standing, on it's/their own laws? Or perhaps link to a picture of 'Maths in the wild'?

(25-03-2015 11:15 PM)kselfri Wrote:  What empirical evidence would you accept?

An internet link would be fine. Smile

(25-03-2015 11:15 PM)kselfri Wrote:  Do you reject ALL things that don't have empirical evidence?

No... I totally enjoy reading the books of Terry Pratchett, Ann Mcaffery etc.

All good science and fantasy literary works, but in no real way beholden to reality.

Much cheers to all.

Since you like to read, here's a recommendation:
http://physics.about.com/od/Max-Tegmark/...iverse.htm
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06-04-2015, 11:31 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 11:24 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  
(06-04-2015 11:17 AM)kselfri Wrote:  The universe has been following mathematics/logic well before humans came into being (the planets have been traveling in ellipses for a long time).

No, the universe has been following predictable patterns that can be encoded and expressed as rules of logic and/or mathematics for a long time. Those patterns are simple expressions of constants, nothing more. They certainly don't require a mind to create them... which is another problem with your initial argument, which is that you never once demonstrate that the physical expressions of logical descriptions aren't naturally occurring. You just assume that based on the fact that logic is conceptual, but the problem there is that you're now asserting that a mind had to create logic in the universe, while using physical effects as an example, and you've no proof whatsoever that the logic that exists in the mind can effect the physical world like that, because it can't. Logic describes what happens in the physical world, it doesn't influence it.

Actually, it does influence it. Every time we use logic & math to create a tool or technology, we are using logic/mathematics together with our imagination to invent things which affect the physical world around us to our liking.
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06-04-2015, 11:40 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 11:31 AM)kselfri Wrote:  Actually, it does influence it. Every time we use logic & math to create a tool or technology, we are using logic/mathematics together with our imagination to invent things which affect the physical world around us to our liking.

None of the things we invent alter the way logic or mathematics work, they work within the pre-existing structure of logic and mathematics to come to a desired outcome. But you're asserting that minds create the laws of logic and mathematics, that in fact minds are necessary preconditions for those laws to exist at all, and you simply have no reason to believe that.
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06-04-2015, 11:49 AM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2015 01:14 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 11:24 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  
(06-04-2015 11:17 AM)kselfri Wrote:  The universe has been following mathematics/logic well before humans came into being (the planets have been traveling in ellipses for a long time).

No, the universe has been following predictable patterns that can be encoded and expressed as rules of logic and/or mathematics for a long time. Those patterns are simple expressions of constants, nothing more. They certainly don't require a mind to create them... which is another problem with your initial argument, which is that you never once demonstrate that the physical expressions of logical descriptions aren't naturally occurring. You just assume that based on the fact that logic is conceptual, but the problem there is that you're now asserting that a mind had to create logic in the universe, while using physical effects as an example, and you've no proof whatsoever that the logic that exists in the mind can effect the physical world like that, because it can't. Logic describes what happens in the physical world, it doesn't influence it.

Exactly. Math is a human description of what humans observe. What appears, under certain conditions, to human brains, to be logical and follow mathematical rules are observations. There are all sorts of "logical" systems, which are internally consistent, which *could* exist, but don't. Why the structure of Reality (NOT "existence") is the way we observe *in this universe*, at this point, unknown. The postualte that it required a mind is an unreasoned "leap of faith" to fill in the knowlege gap with a gap ("god of the gaps") argument. (A "working mind" -anthropomorphism at its worst- requires all sorts of things for which there is not a shred of evidence ... it's a jump to a conclusion, prematurely, as people can't cook up any other answer, ... or don't want to even consider one.) We can to some extent use tools we have discovered to change some things. But to generalize that to conditions (which are now unknown) other than this epoch of this universe is unjustifyably presumptuous. If a theist's god "exists" it is embedded in a Reality that also, as long as that is true, included non-existence. A god (which "exists" and does not "not exist"), cannot create the very Reality it is required by definition to participate in, only partially. Reality, even with a god that "exists", remains unexplained.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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06-04-2015, 12:59 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 11:17 AM)kselfri Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 01:23 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Not even close. Logic is a method of organizing and validating knowledge, not an "immaterial entity". It does not exist anywhere but in the Human mind. It is necessitated by the way our brains work. You see we are not omniscient nor infallible so we we need a way to validate our conclusions. Logic is a method of adhering to reality by keeping our concepts tied to percepts. It has as its root the principle of the primacy of existence. This principle states that the things that exist, exist and are what they are and do what they do independent of any conscious activity. This is the objective orientation of the relationship between a conscious subject and its objects. This is what we observe in all cases. The objects of consciousness do not conform to the subject of consciousness. In all cases in every kind of consciousness that can be observed this is the relationship we find between a conscious subject and its objects.

The God belief affirms the opposite. It affirms a primacy of consciousness. This states that the objects of consciousness do conform to the subject and do not obtain independently of the conscious activity which perceives them. On this view, reality is the product of consciousness and this is precisely what theism affirms. So not only can you not prove God from the existence of logic, the god belief contradicts the very principles that logic rests on, the primacy of existence. No where do we observe a consciousness which enjoys primacy over its objects. No where. There is no alternative but to imagine it. But the imaginary is not real and does not actually exist. God is indistinguishable from something that is merely imaginary. Therefore it does not actually exist. You see how easy it is to prove that gods do not actually exist? If you think I haven't then please refute me by showing how gods are distinguishable, objectively, from something that is merely imaginary.

I see a lot of theist refer to logic as "immaterial". That tells us what it is not but not what it is. Logic is conceptual and therefore is a product of the conceptual faculty, which is very much this world. It is dependent on this world in several ways. First, it is an attribute of the mind and hence the conceptual faculty is biological in nature. In all cases it is dependent on a brain and sense organs. Unless you can point to an example of a consciousness without a brain and sense organs then There is no reason to believe that logic exists everywhere in the universe and beyond. This consciousness that you say created the universe, where does it exist and what are its means of awareness? If it doesn't have a brain and sense organs, then this commits the fallacy of the stolen concept by affirming consciousness without any means.

Secondly, consciousness is consciousness of an object, of something. A consciousness without objects is a contradiction. So consciousness need not only a brain and sense organs but something to be conscious of. If a consciousness created everything distinct from itself, what was it conscious of in the beginning before it created everything? Blank out. This commits the fallacy of the stolen concept.

You might say that it was conscious of itself before it created anything. This doesn't fly either. In all cases that we can observe, consciousness is an action, not an entity. So before consciousness could be conscious of itself it would have to be conscious of something other than itself. The proposition of a consciousness conscious only of itself commits the fallacy of pure self reference. A consciousness which references only its own referencing.

Thirdly, does your god exist? If so then you haven't made any progress in explaining existence since you are referring to something that exists as the cause of existence.

In every way possible, the idea of a god clashes with what we observe in reality. Now either reality isn't real or our consciousness is not valid. But if reality isn't real then there is no such thing as logic and if our consciousness is invalid then we could have no knowledge including knowledge of a God. Your argument simply falls apart in stolen concepts and contradictions.

I would like to ask you to point to me where the Bible mentions logic. Theists constantly point to the fact that only their world view can "account" for logic but I can not find one mention of it in the bible. And since logic is conceptual in nature, I'd like to ask what is the distinctive theistic theory of concepts?

In fact I'd like to know where the Bible discusses any of the following:

1. What is a concept?

2. How are concepts formed?

3. How are they validated?

4. What is the relationship between a concept and reality?

I'd like you to tell me book, chapter and verse where these questions are answered in the Bible. If you didn't get your concept of logic from the Bible then you are "leaning on your own understanding" which the Bible tells you not to do.

You're just screwed no matter how you look at it.

"Logic is a method of organizing and validating knowledge, not an "immaterial entity". It does not exist anywhere but in the Human mind."

The universe has been following mathematics/logic well before humans came into being (the planets have been traveling in ellipses for a long time). Max Tegmark does a better job of explain this than I do:

"I argue that our physical world not only is described by mathematics, but that it is mathematics: a mathematical structure, to be precise."
Max Tegmark
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...h-excerpt/

You are making the same error as the OP and the same error that Plato made. You are treating the rules of mathematics as metaphysical instead of epistemological in natrue. Mathematics is conceptual in nature and is a method of quantifying relationships just as logic is a method of adhering to reality in our thinking. Both only exist in the mind. Both math and logic rest on the law of identity which the concept of gods negates and contradicts. So if you are using the existence of logic and mathematics as a proof of gods, your argument is self refuting.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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06-04-2015, 01:21 PM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2015 02:05 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 12:59 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(06-04-2015 11:17 AM)kselfri Wrote:  "Logic is a method of organizing and validating knowledge, not an "immaterial entity". It does not exist anywhere but in the Human mind."

The universe has been following mathematics/logic well before humans came into being (the planets have been traveling in ellipses for a long time). Max Tegmark does a better job of explain this than I do:

"I argue that our physical world not only is described by mathematics, but that it is mathematics: a mathematical structure, to be precise."
Max Tegmark
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...h-excerpt/

You are making the same error as the OP and the same error that Plato made. You are treating the rules of mathematics as metaphysical instead of epistemological in natrue. Mathematics is conceptual in nature and is a method of quantifying relationships just as logic is a method of adhering to reality in our thinking. Both only exist in the mind. Both math and logic rest on the law of identity which the concept of gods negates and contradicts. So if you are using the existence of logic and mathematics as a proof of gods, your argument is self refuting.

It's also fundamentally a non-religious, (ie a non theologically consistent) argument. There is no "proof" for the gods, (especially the Judeo-Christian god, whom I assume most people mean these days). Faith is (according to them) one of the "gifts of the spirit". Even Jesus said "No one shall come to me, unless the Father draw him". Yahweh Sabaoth, (the Judeo-Christian god) originated in Baylonian mythology as the 70th son of El Elyon, the chief of their council of deities, and was chosen by the Jews to have a "covenant" with, because he was the war god, (the "Lord of hosts" ... a "host" is an arrayed army in battle formation), as they wanted his assistance in their battles. They believed in many deities, but agreeed they would worship only one, in exchange for his help.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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06-04-2015, 01:32 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 01:21 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(06-04-2015 12:59 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  You are making the same error as the OP and the same error that Plato made. You are treating the rules of mathematics as metaphysical instead of epistemological in natrue. Mathematics is conceptual in nature and is a method of quantifying relationships just as logic is a method of adhering to reality in our thinking. Both only exist in the mind. Both math and logic rest on the law of identity which the concept of gods negates and contradicts. So if you are using the existence of logic and mathematics as a proof of gods, your argument is self refuting.

It's also fundamentally a non-religious argument. There is no "proof" for the gods, (especially the Judeo-Christian god, whom I assume most people mean these days). Faith is (according to them) one of the "gifts of the spirit". Even Jesus said "No one shall come to me, unless the Father draw him". Yahweh Sabaoth, (the Judeo-Christian god) originated in Baylonian mythology as the 70th son of El Elyon, the chief of their council of deities, and was chosen by the Jews to have a "covenant" with, because he was the war god, (the "Lord of hosts" ... a "host" is an arrayed army in battle formation), as they wanted his assistance in their battles.

That's so true. Every time they try to use logic (it's so painful to watch) to prove their gods, they are rejecting their own doctrine of faith as the only way to salvation. I guess they feel they need to "speak our language". If they truly did they wouldn't be theists.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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