Logic Proof for God
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06-04-2015, 01:36 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 11:20 AM)kselfri Wrote:  1) Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2) Logic is thought.

3) Thought only comes from a mind.
Therefore, a mind created the universe God.

Fixed for you.
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06-04-2015, 01:41 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 01:50 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Define nothing.


Well worth a read!

Nothing: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions)
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06-04-2015, 02:03 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 11:20 AM)kselfri Wrote:  1) Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2) Logic is thought.

3) Thought only comes from a mind.
Therefore, a mind created the universe God.

#1 is a demonstrably a false over-statement. What appears to be logical MAY exist in THIS universe. (Not all logical systems obtain). No one knows whether what appears to logical in this region of this universe can be applied to anything else, until it's tested.

2. is irrelevant

3. that you know of now. There may be robots and machines that can process information, based on logical rules.

4. For a *mind* to *work*, time is required for the thought processing. Spacetime did not exist, that you know of, before this universe, so to say ANYTHING about a "creation event" not only is meanngless, and unsupported, but it also refutes the "eternal" nature of a deity that is said to be infinte and eternal. An "event" in an eternal being's existence is a measuring point and refutes the qualities you claim for your deity.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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06-04-2015, 02:26 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 11:20 AM)kselfri Wrote:  It is not matter or energy. It does not require any dimensions in order to exist, and can exist outside the universe.

And you know that how, exactly ?
The laws of this univers apply only to this universe, until proven otherwise.
The fact is, you have no clue. Thought requires time. It's a process. That's a dimension. (And BTW, you have not defined "thought"). ''Thought" requires all sorts of things, such as learning and inputs.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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06-04-2015, 02:28 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
Not to mention that 'mind' is a woolly concept. Does an Octopus have a mind even though each of its legs have their own neurons and can act independently? What about a slug? At what point does an organism have a mind?




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06-04-2015, 04:29 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 02:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 11:20 AM)kselfri Wrote:  1) Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2) Logic is thought.

3) Thought only comes from a mind.
Therefore, a mind created the universe God.

#1 is a demonstrably a false over-statement. What appears to be logical MAY exist in THIS universe. (Not all logical systems obtain). No one knows whether what appears to logical in this region of this universe can be applied to anything else, until it's tested.

2. is irrelevant

3. that you know of now. There may be robots and machines that can process information, based on logical rules.

4. For a *mind* to *work*, time is required for the thought processing. Spacetime did not exist, that you know of, before this universe, so to say ANYTHING about a "creation event" not only is meanngless, and unsupported, but it also refutes the "eternal" nature of a deity that is said to be infinte and eternal. An "event" in an eternal being's existence is a measuring point and refutes the qualities you claim for your deity.

There's also an acceptable variant of #1, Logic applies everywhere in the universe, which may be more palpable.

Cosmologists have been measuring and gathering data spanning the universe, they all agree the galaxies and the universe behave in accordance with mathematics/logic. The fact they're able to make these measurements and observe light spanning billions of years is evidence it does exist everywhere. It has not been proven to the contrary. They've not found evidence of any region of space which math/logic are absent. I don't see how something supported by overwhelming evidence is an overstatement.

So you don't see the Big Bang as a creation event? I propose that math/logic existed before that event, otherwise that event could not have occurred.
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06-04-2015, 04:32 PM
Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 04:29 PM)kselfri Wrote:  
(06-04-2015 02:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  #1 is a demonstrably a false over-statement. What appears to be logical MAY exist in THIS universe. (Not all logical systems obtain). No one knows whether what appears to logical in this region of this universe can be applied to anything else, until it's tested.

2. is irrelevant

3. that you know of now. There may be robots and machines that can process information, based on logical rules.

4. For a *mind* to *work*, time is required for the thought processing. Spacetime did not exist, that you know of, before this universe, so to say ANYTHING about a "creation event" not only is meanngless, and unsupported, but it also refutes the "eternal" nature of a deity that is said to be infinte and eternal. An "event" in an eternal being's existence is a measuring point and refutes the qualities you claim for your deity.

There's also an acceptable variant of #1, Logic applies everywhere in the universe, which may be more palpable.

Cosmologists have been measuring and gathering data spanning the universe, they all agree the galaxies and the universe behave in accordance with mathematics/logic. The fact they're able to make these measurements and observe light spanning billions of years is evidence it does exist everywhere. It has not been proven to the contrary. They've not found evidence of any region of space which math/logic are absent. I don't see how something supported by overwhelming evidence is an overstatement.

So you don't see the Big Bang as a creation event? I propose that math/logic existed before that event, otherwise that event could not have occurred.

The Big Bang isn't a creation event, it's an expansion event. There is no "before" the Big Bang because there was no time.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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06-04-2015, 04:34 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 04:29 PM)kselfri Wrote:  
(06-04-2015 02:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  #1 is a demonstrably a false over-statement. What appears to be logical MAY exist in THIS universe. (Not all logical systems obtain). No one knows whether what appears to logical in this region of this universe can be applied to anything else, until it's tested.

2. is irrelevant

3. that you know of now. There may be robots and machines that can process information, based on logical rules.

4. For a *mind* to *work*, time is required for the thought processing. Spacetime did not exist, that you know of, before this universe, so to say ANYTHING about a "creation event" not only is meanngless, and unsupported, but it also refutes the "eternal" nature of a deity that is said to be infinte and eternal. An "event" in an eternal being's existence is a measuring point and refutes the qualities you claim for your deity.

There's also an acceptable variant of #1, Logic applies everywhere in the universe, which may be more palpable.

Cosmologists have been measuring and gathering data spanning the universe, they all agree the galaxies and the universe behave in accordance with mathematics/logic. The fact they're able to make these measurements and observe light spanning billions of years is evidence it does exist everywhere. It has not been proven to the contrary. They've not found evidence of any region of space which math/logic are absent. I don't see how something supported by overwhelming evidence is an overstatement.

So you don't see the Big Bang as a creation event? I propose that math/logic existed before that event, otherwise that event could not have occurred.

I think the word you want is 'palatable'.

Mathematics and logic exist in our minds and only in our minds. It does not have a Platonic form, a separate existence. They are concepts that codify our observations.

Your continued assertion that they somehow exist outside of minds is quite weird.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-04-2015, 04:37 PM
Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 04:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-04-2015 04:29 PM)kselfri Wrote:  There's also an acceptable variant of #1, Logic applies everywhere in the universe, which may be more palpable.

Cosmologists have been measuring and gathering data spanning the universe, they all agree the galaxies and the universe behave in accordance with mathematics/logic. The fact they're able to make these measurements and observe light spanning billions of years is evidence it does exist everywhere. It has not been proven to the contrary. They've not found evidence of any region of space which math/logic are absent. I don't see how something supported by overwhelming evidence is an overstatement.

So you don't see the Big Bang as a creation event? I propose that math/logic existed before that event, otherwise that event could not have occurred.

I think the word you want is 'palatable'.

Mathematics and logic exist in our minds and only in our minds. It does not have a Platonic form, a separate existence. They are concepts that codify our observations.

Your continued assertion that they somehow exist outside of minds is quite weird.

It isn't weird if you consider that he thinks a mind exists outside the mind. But that would be the ultimate materialistic view whereby a mind exists from the universe.

I just blew my own mind.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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06-04-2015, 05:07 PM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2015 07:43 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 04:29 PM)kselfri Wrote:  
(06-04-2015 02:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  #1 is a demonstrably a false over-statement. What appears to be logical MAY exist in THIS universe. (Not all logical systems obtain). No one knows whether what appears to logical in this region of this universe can be applied to anything else, until it's tested.

2. is irrelevant

3. that you know of now. There may be robots and machines that can process information, based on logical rules.

4. For a *mind* to *work*, time is required for the thought processing. Space time did not exist, that you know of, before this universe, so to say ANYTHING about a "creation event" not only is meaningless, and unsupported, but it also refutes the "eternal" nature of a deity that is said to be infinite and eternal. An "event" in an eternal being's existence is a measuring point and refutes the qualities you claim for your deity.

There's also an acceptable variant of #1, Logic applies everywhere in the universe, which may be more palpable.

Cosmologists have been measuring and gathering data spanning the universe, they all agree the galaxies and the universe behave in accordance with mathematics/logic. The fact they're able to make these measurements and observe light spanning billions of years is evidence it does exist everywhere. It has not been proven to the contrary. They've not found evidence of any region of space which math/logic are absent. I don't see how something supported by overwhelming evidence is an overstatement.

So you don't see the Big Bang as a creation event? I propose that math/logic existed before that event, otherwise that event could not have occurred.

It doesn't matter what you propose or posit. The ultimate nature of this universe has been proven to be "non-intuitive" to human brains. Are Relativity, Uncertainty, and the tensors of Dirac "logically intuitive". No. Your assertion about information concerning the universe is a wild exaggeration, and actually an outright lie. Dark matter and dark energy comprise more than 90 % of this universe, (or what is acting on it), and cosmologists at this point have no clue what they even are. So, what we know about this universe is about 5% of what constitutes the universe. You are claiming to be able to generalize on the basis of 5 % ? YOU have no clue whether there are other regions or epochs of this universe, or whether (as some cosmologists such as Roger Penrose posit) there are bangs and re-bangs, ie an infinite expansion-contraction cycle. Of course the Big Bang was not a "creation event". The conditions that caused it had to be in place already. What caused those. What *caused* the Principle of Causality ? You have not examined your "priors" (assumptions). If the Big Bang was a singularity, we know that at the boundary of a singularity, ALL laws as we know them, break down. That alone debunks your theory. Your assumptions are not tenable, and your jump to your particular god has no justification AT ALL. (And BTW, you are ignoring that we have no clue if the dimensions observed in this universe exist apart from it ... thought REQUIRES time, and you have no clue if that existed apart from this universe). We simply don't know yet. In your world, an omnipotent deity could have created a race of robot universe makers, who make universes as toys to play with. Your argument is (albight a failed one) only an argument for a proximate (nearest) cause, not an ultimate cause. You are assuming they are the same, as you have been conditioned (indoctrinated) to think that way. There could have been a chain of causation events. There are logically consistent systems that do NOT exist, (as Dr. Sean Carroll pointed out to WLC in their debate). The fact that human brains have "found" some things that appear to be logical, is proof of nothing. If there are systems that are logically internally consistent, but do not exist, then the only thing you have left, is to wait for the evidence.

And BTW, 2+2 can = 5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinitesim...ain_theory
Logic and math attempt to describe reality. They don't define reality. There is no such *thing* as a "mind". It' a descriptor of what science knows are a collective set of neurological physical processes. You haven't defined what a "mind" is, or what "thought" is.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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