Logic Proof for God
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06-04-2015, 05:08 PM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2015 05:11 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 11:17 AM)kselfri Wrote:  "I argue that our physical world not only is described by mathematics, but that it is mathematics: a mathematical structure, to be precise."
Max Tegmark
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...h-excerpt/

If that's what you were trying to get at in your OP you failed miserably. But if that is what you meant then it makes for a far more provocative and interesting discussion. Thumbsup

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06-04-2015, 05:11 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 04:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-04-2015 04:29 PM)kselfri Wrote:  There's also an acceptable variant of #1, Logic applies everywhere in the universe, which may be more palpable.

I think the word you want is 'palatable'.

I like "palpable" better, just 'cause it makes me think of squeezing boobies.

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06-04-2015, 06:38 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 04:29 PM)kselfri Wrote:  
(06-04-2015 02:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  #1 is a demonstrably a false over-statement. What appears to be logical MAY exist in THIS universe. (Not all logical systems obtain). No one knows whether what appears to logical in this region of this universe can be applied to anything else, until it's tested.

2. is irrelevant

3. that you know of now. There may be robots and machines that can process information, based on logical rules.

4. For a *mind* to *work*, time is required for the thought processing. Spacetime did not exist, that you know of, before this universe, so to say ANYTHING about a "creation event" not only is meanngless, and unsupported, but it also refutes the "eternal" nature of a deity that is said to be infinte and eternal. An "event" in an eternal being's existence is a measuring point and refutes the qualities you claim for your deity.

There's also an acceptable variant of #1, Logic applies everywhere in the universe, which may be more palpable.

Cosmologists have been measuring and gathering data spanning the universe, they all agree the galaxies and the universe behave in accordance with mathematics/logic. The fact they're able to make these measurements and observe light spanning billions of years is evidence it does exist everywhere. It has not been proven to the contrary. They've not found evidence of any region of space which math/logic are absent. I don't see how something supported by overwhelming evidence is an overstatement.

So you don't see the Big Bang as a creation event? I propose that math/logic existed before that event, otherwise that event could not have occurred.

You've got it bass ackwards. Galaxies, planets, raindrops, fire, and everything that exists behave according to their nature and according to the laws of nature. Logic and mathematics result from our conceptual grasp of these facts. Logic and mathematics simply have no meaning apart from the act of cognition. The order in the universe does not rest on logic and mathematics; logic and mathematics rest on the order of the universe. The order in the universe is primary to the laws of logic and mathematics. To say that logic causes the universe to behave orderly is to say that nature is inherently disorderly and that denies the axiom of existence/identity which commits the fallacy of the stolen concept.

To say that logic and mathematics pre-existed the Human mind is exactly like saying that digestion pre-existed stomachs.

Logic would be completely useless to an omniscient and infallible mind. It is precisely because our minds are fallible and we are not omniscient that we need logic. Logic is a way of organizing and integrating our thoughts and making sure they correspond to reality. A perfect mind which created everything would not need such a process. It would have no need to organize and validate knowledge. If God created logic for us to use then why did he not mention it in his Bible and tell us how to use it. I've asked you to show us book, chapter and verse where the Bible discusses concepts and how they are formed. You ignored my request. Now I'm adding logic to that. Where does the Bible speak of logic?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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07-04-2015, 01:02 AM (This post was last modified: 07-04-2015 01:06 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 04:29 PM)kselfri Wrote:  Cosmologists have been measuring and gathering data spanning the universe, they all agree the galaxies and the universe behave in accordance with mathematics/logic.

No they don't. Sometimes we have to create new Maths to describe the universe. For example Newton's laws of motion do not adequately describe a lot of what we can now observe. Einstein had to develop his own form of non-euclidean Mathematics. GPS would not work as accurately if we stuck with Newton's laws of motion, which were of course created by Newton to adequately describe what he could observe.

You talk about mathematics/logic as a single entity. What kind of Maths? What kind of logic? Are we talking statistics? Pure Maths? Fuzzy logic? Predicate calculus? Computational theory? Information theory? Classical thermodynamics? Non-equilibrium thermodynamics?

Mathematics and logic were created by humans to describe what they were able to observe and work with. There will be many more forms of logic and Maths that we have yet to invent.
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07-04-2015, 03:05 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 01:41 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 01:50 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Define nothing.


Well worth a read!

Nothing: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions)

Whoa, doesn't really look like a light read... but it could be interesting. Tongue

孤独 - The Out Crowd
Life is a flash of light between two eternities of darkness.
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07-04-2015, 03:27 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 05:11 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(06-04-2015 04:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  I think the word you want is 'palatable'.

I like "palpable" better, just 'cause it makes me think of squeezing boobies.

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07-04-2015, 03:40 AM (This post was last modified: 07-04-2015 03:44 AM by Ace.)
RE: Logic Proof for God
we create maths, logic, rules for the express and sole purpose of describing the universe as we now understand it
Einsteins used a non-euclidean form of mathematics for his theory of relativity because all euclidean mathematical tools were inadequate to study the curved plain we know call spacetime

when we say natural laws no one is saying there are actual laws or rules, what we're really saying is that if all criteria and conditions for a particular phenomena to occur are exactly replicated or repeated then that phenomena will happen again

we create these "logical rules and laws" to allows us to understand a phenomena and be able reproduce it under controlled conditions

------------------------------------------------------------------------
now to the meat of the matter

(06-04-2015 06:38 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(06-04-2015 04:29 PM)kselfri Wrote:  There's also an acceptable variant of #1, Logic applies everywhere in the universe, which may be more palpable.

Cosmologists have been measuring and gathering data spanning the universe, they all agree the galaxies and the universe behave in accordance with mathematics/logic. The fact they're able to make these measurements and observe light spanning billions of years is evidence it does exist everywhere. It has not been proven to the contrary. They've not found evidence of any region of space which math/logic are absent. I don't see how something supported by overwhelming evidence is an overstatement.

So you don't see the Big Bang as a creation event? I propose that math/logic existed before that event, otherwise that event could not have occurred.

You've got it bass ackwards. Galaxies, planets, raindrops, fire, and everything that exists behave according to their nature and according to the laws of nature. Logic and mathematics result from our conceptual grasp of these facts. Logic and mathematics simply have no meaning apart from the act of cognition. The order in the universe does not rest on logic and mathematics; logic and mathematics rest on the order of the universe. The order in the universe is primary to the laws of logic and mathematics. To say that logic causes the universe to behave orderly is to say that nature is inherently disorderly and that denies the axiom of existence/identity which commits the fallacy of the stolen concept.

To say that logic and mathematics pre-existed the Human mind is exactly like saying that digestion pre-existed stomachs.

Logic would be completely useless to an omniscient and infallible mind. It is precisely because our minds are fallible and we are not omniscient that we need logic. Logic is a way of organizing and integrating our thoughts and making sure they correspond to reality. A perfect mind which created everything would not need such a process. It would have no need to organize and validate knowledge. If God created logic for us to use then why did he not mention it in his Bible and tell us how to use it. I've asked you to show us book, chapter and verse where the Bible discusses concepts and how they are formed. You ignored my request. Now I'm adding logic to that. Where does the Bible speak of logic?

define omniscient in a way that doesn't create any paradoxes

words like, omniscient, omnipotence are ill defined as they create paradoxes so define them without creating any paradoxes otherwise don't use such terms
perfect is not a possible thing, its an unattainable

also you are defeating yourself here
Quote: It is precisely because our minds are fallible and we are not omniscient that we need logic
well Mr.fallible kselfri's mind, why should we assume what you say is true ? that a fallible person like yourself knows something to be infallibly true like an infallible mind existing somewhere and creating universes ?

provide evidence and submit it for peer review if you want us to listen
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07-04-2015, 08:06 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
kselfri,

When will that biblical theory of concepts be forthcoming?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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08-04-2015, 04:33 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 04:29 PM)kselfri Wrote:  So you don't see the Big Bang as a creation event? I propose that math/logic existed before that event, otherwise that event could not have occurred.

How did you determine that? I'm seeing a lot of assertion, and nothing that anyone could remotely call justification. Especially since in the absence of the currently understood laws of logic you'd have a hard time concluding that anything would be impossible, since things are only possible or impossible relative to the observations we make that form the laws of logic.

In a "formulate," sense, of course. Not form as in, "create," because the laws of logic are conceptual observations, not literal things that exist.
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08-04-2015, 05:48 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(06-04-2015 05:08 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(06-04-2015 11:17 AM)kselfri Wrote:  "I argue that our physical world not only is described by mathematics, but that it is mathematics: a mathematical structure, to be precise."
Max Tegmark
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...h-excerpt/

If that's what you were trying to get at in your OP you failed miserably. But if that is what you meant then it makes for a far more provocative and interesting discussion. Thumbsup

That's some extra support for my premise #1. Some seem to think math/logic is just a mere invention of mankind, in which case they automatically reject premise #1. I think Max does a better job of explaining why math/logic (I consider math & logic one in the same) are not mere inventions. I didn't expect to spend half my time defending premise #1, thought it was obvious.
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