Logic Proof for God
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08-04-2015, 09:31 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(18-03-2015 01:02 PM)Ace Wrote:  so god can do everything, well he can't





demonstrate your god otherwise STFU

edit:
if you can't demonstrate you god with empirical evidence then your nothing but a waste of time here
no matter how much spin you use what your saying amounts to nothing more than garbage unless you can back it up with empirical evidence

seriously what experiments can we use to verify what your claiming ? unless you can tell us this your claims are rejected by default without objection

Every successful scientific experiment has shown the physical world behaves according logic/math. There's your verification for premise #1.
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08-04-2015, 09:33 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(26-03-2015 03:11 AM)Ace Wrote:  
(25-03-2015 11:44 PM)kselfri Wrote:  This is beyond my proof, you guys are unraveling some new concepts here. If God did not create logic, then logic would have to be an intrinsic part of God, not a product of God. If God did create logic, perhaps all he'd need is imagination (a mind) to make up some rules. Alternately, If God did create logic, it could require some other form of logic incompatible to our minds and not present in this universe.

logic is a process of perception as a result of our brains functioning and thats it
the rules in logic are arbitrary as no one is under any obligation ot follow them instead of whatever rules they prefer............... the only reason we have a standard set of rules is because we wouldn't be able to understand the others reasoning any other way

logic can't exist without a physical brain to accommodate that very process and there is no indication of it being any other way
a mind also requires a physical brain

Quote: I cannot conceive of logic having a beginning or end. Being the fabric of existence, it's necessarily eternal.

all you said here is "I don't know a how this stuff works or occurs therefore whatever I say outweighs people who spent years studying it and have a better understanding of it "
just because you can think of it existing in any other way doesn't mean there is no other way for it to exist

its is NOT the fabric of the universe or anything else for that matter, its just shit that goes on in our brains till we die

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

I'll post a counter-hyperlink:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...h-excerpt/
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08-04-2015, 09:38 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(26-03-2015 12:01 PM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  
(25-03-2015 05:58 PM)kselfri Wrote:  Could you travel to some far corner of the universe where "if A=B and B=C, then A=C" is not true? There's ample empirical evidence that the rules of logic hold true everywhere, and no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Perhaps you can accept logic is a product of thought?

There is a difference between logic able to be applied everywhere and logic existing everywhere. Logic does not exist outside the bounds of human thought.

I agree there's a difference between "apply" and "exists". Simply substitute "applies" for "exists", works for me.
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08-04-2015, 09:41 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
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08-04-2015, 11:47 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(08-04-2015 09:28 PM)kselfri Wrote:  
(07-04-2015 03:40 AM)Ace Wrote:  we create maths, logic, rules for the express and sole purpose of describing the universe as we now understand it
Einsteins used a non-euclidean form of mathematics for his theory of relativity because all euclidean mathematical tools were inadequate to study the curved plain we know call spacetime

when we say natural laws no one is saying there are actual laws or rules, what we're really saying is that if all criteria and conditions for a particular phenomena to occur are exactly replicated or repeated then that phenomena will happen again

we create these "logical rules and laws" to allows us to understand a phenomena and be able reproduce it under controlled conditions

------------------------------------------------------------------------
now to the meat of the matter


define omniscient in a way that doesn't create any paradoxes

words like, omniscient, omnipotence are ill defined as they create paradoxes so define them without creating any paradoxes otherwise don't use such terms
perfect is not a possible thing, its an unattainable

also you are defeating yourself here
well Mr.fallible kselfri's mind, why should we assume what you say is true ? that a fallible person like yourself knows something to be infallibly true like an infallible mind existing somewhere and creating universes ?

provide evidence and submit it for peer review if you want us to listen


Ace, It seems you may be confusing my comments & Scotmans? I never mentioned anything about omniscience, fallable or infallible.

oh that, sorry I wasn't clear about that I had semester finals the next day so I was hard pressed for time, I used scot's posts because he already explained most of what I wanted to say and I just added to them and I also wanted to tell him he needs to define those terms if he wanted to use them. and I didn't feel the need to quote your posts because al lof em were pretty much the same thing

I used the last quote because whenever someone claims that logic is the fabric or nothingness along those lines they always mean an a mind created the universe they always mean the god of the bible, there is no acceptance of falsifiability or fallibility as proponents of the mind argument reject them
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09-04-2015, 12:56 AM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2015 01:19 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Logic Proof for God
(08-04-2015 08:13 PM)kselfri Wrote:  Then how do you explain that the planets travel in ellipses (a mathematical equation) or that light travels at a constant speed (a constant quantity), or all the other physical behaviors of the universe being in accordance with mathematical equations? How was it that Higgs was able to, using math & logic, predict the existence of a particle to be discovered decades later? Following your reasoning, if humans were to go extinct, the planets would suddenly change their orbits to random wiggles, the speed of light would fluctuate randomly, and the universe would descend into chaos.

No. You've missed the point entirely. Math is ONE system that appears to describe, under some circumstances, what humans observe. We KNOW that at the boundary of a singularity, the laws break down, thus are not really "constants" under ALL circumstances. The motion described by *ellipses* (and which could be described in other ways in other systems by other observers) are not immutable. You still have not defined your terms : "mind", and "thought", and you have yet to prove that only minds are capable of thought, and you have yet to explain how thought is possible in the absence of time, or that space-time exists in any other reality than this universe. You're simply slapping entirely anthropological terms onto a system/conditions where they did not/may not apply.

Your argument is the argumentum ad ignorantium ( http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance ) fallacy. Your premises have also been proven false, (there are internally logical systems which do not obtain), and there are some things which are observed which are not "logical", (no absolute reference for space-time / Relativity, Uncertainty, Double Slit experiment observation that electrons go through BOTH slits and particles behave as waves.

There is also no way, no matter whether you can cook up a non-fallacious argument or not (which you have not yet done), to prove that it applies to "a god" or any gods, (a term you have not defined, which in fact has no coherent definition). Gods which have properties (of necessity) would be embedded in the fabric of Reality "necessarily" thus not able to create the very Reality in which they "of necessity" must participate.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-04-2015, 05:04 AM
Logic Proof for God
(08-04-2015 09:10 PM)kselfri Wrote:  
(08-04-2015 05:53 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Math is an emergent property of conscious thought. Without a mind to observe it, it does not exist because math is an abstract concept. It isn't matter or energy.

...and the physics of the universe follow these abstract rules of math & logic. Therefore, it was created by a mind. The proof, again, in a round-about way.

Incorrect. Physics is a description of the universe in mathematical terms. It is DESCRIBED by a mind.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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09-04-2015, 05:19 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(08-04-2015 09:10 PM)kselfri Wrote:  ...and the physics of the universe follow these abstract rules of math & logic. Therefore, it was created by a mind. The proof, again, in a round-about way.

It *could have* been created by a mind.
Even IF the syllogism is correct, (and it's not), it's not a proof for a necessary and ULTIMATE cause.

"Creation" is an event that assumes conditions that have not been demonstrated to have been necessarily true.

(His psych needs seem to be trumping his reasoning) :
ambiguity tolerance, cognitive closure

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-04-2015, 05:24 AM
Logic Proof for God
(08-04-2015 08:13 PM)kselfri Wrote:  
(08-04-2015 05:53 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Math is an emergent property of conscious thought. Without a mind to observe it, it does not exist because math is an abstract concept. It isn't matter or energy.

What you're saying is that if a tree falls in the woods and no human is around to observe it, it didn't happen. Really?

Then how do you explain that the planets travel in ellipses (a mathematical equation) or that light travels at a constant speed (a constant quantity), or all the other physical behaviors of the universe being in accordance with mathematical equations? How was it that Higgs was able to, using math & logic, predict the existence of a particle to be discovered decades later? Following your reasoning, if humans were to go extinct, the planets would suddenly change their orbits to random wiggles, the speed of light would fluctuate randomly, and the universe would descend into chaos.

You're still confusing matter and energy with abstract concepts (like math or language).

Without humans, the universe would still exist, but the math used to describe it, wouldn't. As that is dependent upon the humans who created it and use it.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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09-04-2015, 05:25 AM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(08-04-2015 09:31 PM)kselfri Wrote:  Every successful scientific experiment has shown the physical world behaves according logic/math. There's your verification for premise #1.

Not even wrong.

You say that Maths and Logic underlie the existence of the universe and will exist even if the human race did not, yet you do not even attempt to guess at what this Physical form of Maths and Logic is or explain it.

You're right in that there is something underlying the functioning of the entire universe. It is described by the human laws of thermodynamics. Absolutely everything can ultimately be explained using these laws and how it results in the localised minimisation of free-energy and the increase of global entropy. Every system is part of a larger self organising system. Maths and Logic is just a short-cut we use otherwise the explanations are unwieldy.

You should have learnt about thermodynamics in your two Physics semesters.
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