Logic Proof for God
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09-04-2015, 03:56 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(08-04-2015 04:33 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  
(06-04-2015 04:29 PM)kselfri Wrote:  So you don't see the Big Bang as a creation event? I propose that math/logic existed before that event, otherwise that event could not have occurred.

How did you determine that? I'm seeing a lot of assertion, and nothing that anyone could remotely call justification. Especially since in the absence of the currently understood laws of logic you'd have a hard time concluding that anything would be impossible, since things are only possible or impossible relative to the observations we make that form the laws of logic.

In a "formulate," sense, of course. Not form as in, "create," because the laws of logic are conceptual observations, not literal things that exist.

Logic & math are not derived from observation. They are a priori.
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09-04-2015, 04:01 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(09-04-2015 03:39 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You could call math the language of the universe. And like a language, it's an abstract creation by humans used for communicating information.

I agree with you that it's the language of the universe, in the same way Galileo said the Universe was written in the language of mathematics. I just disagree with the language being a creation of humans, since the universe existed before humans.
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09-04-2015, 04:07 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(09-04-2015 03:27 PM)kselfri Wrote:  
(09-04-2015 09:59 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Mathematics is a language we developed to measure and describe the world around us. It fits the universe to the extent that we understand and can describe the universe. When we learn something new our description changes, the mathematics changes. Mathematics a language like art is a language. Are we surprised to see real things represented in paintings? Why would we be surprised to see real things represented in equations?

The art vs. mathematics analogy is flawed. A painting depicts real things because one made a visual observation, then copied it. Mathematics is capable of the opposite. It can predict the existence of physical behaviors & entities before they're observed.

Not actually. It is the models in our minds that make predictions. The models are partly mathematical.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-04-2015, 04:09 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
I'm re-posting for a minor modification to the 1st premise based on some constructive comments.

1) Logic either exists or applies everywhere in the universe.
2) Logic is thought.
3) Thought only comes from a mind.
Therefore, a mind created the universe.

Note: In this proof, Logic also includes mathematics.
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09-04-2015, 04:09 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(09-04-2015 04:01 PM)kselfri Wrote:  
(09-04-2015 03:39 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You could call math the language of the universe. And like a language, it's an abstract creation by humans used for communicating information.

I agree with you that it's the language of the universe, in the same way Galileo said the Universe was written in the language of mathematics. I just disagree with the language being a creation of humans, since the universe existed before humans.

Mathematics was invented by humans, not discovered. There are mathematical systems that bear no relation to reality. The mathematics that apply to reality are a subset of the mathematics we have created.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-04-2015, 04:14 PM
Logic Proof for God
(09-04-2015 04:01 PM)kselfri Wrote:  
(09-04-2015 03:39 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You could call math the language of the universe. And like a language, it's an abstract creation by humans used for communicating information.

I agree with you that it's the language of the universe, in the same way Galileo said the Universe was written in the language of mathematics. I just disagree with the language being a creation of humans, since the universe existed before humans.

No. Humans created math to describe the universe. Unless you have evidence of math (like calculus) before humans?

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09-04-2015, 04:14 PM
Logic Proof for God
It's like a language. Life creates language. Language doesn't create life.

Math describes the universe, the universe doesn't describe math.

You. Have. It. Backwards.

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09-04-2015, 04:16 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
1) Humans have mental tools that apply everywhere in the universe.
2) Mental tools are thought.
3) Thought only comes from a mind.
Therefore, a mind created the universe.

See how that doesn't work? Consider

Your argument is not logical.

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09-04-2015, 05:43 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 11:20 AM)kselfri Wrote:  1) Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2) Logic is thought.
3) Thought only comes from a mind.
Therefore, a mind created the universe.

Premise #2 could use some explanation, so I'll add the following:
Logic, in its various forms (including mathematics) has been something we discover, not something invented by man. It is not matter or energy. It does not require any dimensions in order to exist, and can exist outside the universe. What else is left for it to be, except thought?


1. Logic does not exist. It is a man made construct created from thought itself. Thought does not exist anywhere in the universe outside of our minds themselves.

2. Sigh... I guess?, your right?

LOGIC! NOUN
1.
the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
2.
a particular method of reasoning or argumentation:
We were unable to follow his logic.
3.
the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.
4.
reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions:
There wasn't much logic in her move.
5.
convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness:
the irresistible logic of the facts.


3. Your conclusion is completely false. You assume logic exists everywhere in the universe. Therefor the entire universe is a mind. The universe is not a mind.


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09-04-2015, 06:27 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(09-04-2015 03:56 PM)kselfri Wrote:  
(08-04-2015 04:33 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  How did you determine that? I'm seeing a lot of assertion, and nothing that anyone could remotely call justification. Especially since in the absence of the currently understood laws of logic you'd have a hard time concluding that anything would be impossible, since things are only possible or impossible relative to the observations we make that form the laws of logic.

In a "formulate," sense, of course. Not form as in, "create," because the laws of logic are conceptual observations, not literal things that exist.

Logic & math are not derived from observation. They are a priori.

Wrong. They are derived from observation.

Hope this video helps you to understand this.




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