Logic Proof for God
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15-03-2015, 01:23 PM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2015 01:32 PM by true scotsman.)
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 11:20 AM)kselfri Wrote:  1) Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2) Logic is thought.
3) Thought only comes from a mind.
Therefore, a mind created the universe.

Premise #2 could use some explanation, so I'll add the following:
Logic, in its various forms (including mathematics) has been something we discover, not something invented by man. It is not matter or energy. It does not require any dimensions in order to exist, and can exist outside the universe. What else is left for it to be, except thought?

Not even close. Logic is a method of organizing and validating knowledge, not an "immaterial entity". It does not exist anywhere but in the Human mind. It is necessitated by the way our brains work. You see we are not omniscient nor infallible so we we need a way to validate our conclusions. Logic is a method of adhering to reality by keeping our concepts tied to percepts. It has as its root the principle of the primacy of existence. This principle states that the things that exist, exist and are what they are and do what they do independent of any conscious activity. This is the objective orientation of the relationship between a conscious subject and its objects. This is what we observe in all cases. The objects of consciousness do not conform to the subject of consciousness. In all cases in every kind of consciousness that can be observed this is the relationship we find between a conscious subject and its objects.

The God belief affirms the opposite. It affirms a primacy of consciousness. This states that the objects of consciousness do conform to the subject and do not obtain independently of the conscious activity which perceives them. On this view, reality is the product of consciousness and this is precisely what theism affirms. So not only can you not prove God from the existence of logic, the god belief contradicts the very principles that logic rests on, the primacy of existence. No where do we observe a consciousness which enjoys primacy over its objects. No where. There is no alternative but to imagine it. But the imaginary is not real and does not actually exist. God is indistinguishable from something that is merely imaginary. Therefore it does not actually exist. You see how easy it is to prove that gods do not actually exist? If you think I haven't then please refute me by showing how gods are distinguishable, objectively, from something that is merely imaginary.

I see a lot of theist refer to logic as "immaterial". That tells us what it is not but not what it is. Logic is conceptual and therefore is a product of the conceptual faculty, which is very much this world. It is dependent on this world in several ways. First, it is an attribute of the mind and hence the conceptual faculty is biological in nature. In all cases it is dependent on a brain and sense organs. Unless you can point to an example of a consciousness without a brain and sense organs then There is no reason to believe that logic exists everywhere in the universe and beyond. This consciousness that you say created the universe, where does it exist and what are its means of awareness? If it doesn't have a brain and sense organs, then this commits the fallacy of the stolen concept by affirming consciousness without any means.

Secondly, consciousness is consciousness of an object, of something. A consciousness without objects is a contradiction. So consciousness need not only a brain and sense organs but something to be conscious of. If a consciousness created everything distinct from itself, what was it conscious of in the beginning before it created everything? Blank out. This commits the fallacy of the stolen concept.

You might say that it was conscious of itself before it created anything. This doesn't fly either. In all cases that we can observe, consciousness is an action, not an entity. So before consciousness could be conscious of itself it would have to be conscious of something other than itself. The proposition of a consciousness conscious only of itself commits the fallacy of pure self reference. A consciousness which references only its own referencing.

Thirdly, does your god exist? If so then you haven't made any progress in explaining existence since you are referring to something that exists as the cause of existence.

In every way possible, the idea of a god clashes with what we observe in reality. Now either reality isn't real or our consciousness is not valid. But if reality isn't real then there is no such thing as logic and if our consciousness is invalid then we could have no knowledge including knowledge of a God. Your argument simply falls apart in stolen concepts and contradictions.

I would like to ask you to point to me where the Bible mentions logic. Theists constantly point to the fact that only their world view can "account" for logic but I can not find one mention of it in the bible. And since logic is conceptual in nature, I'd like to ask what is the distinctive theistic theory of concepts?

In fact I'd like to know where the Bible discusses any of the following:

1. What is a concept?

2. How are concepts formed?

3. How are they validated?

4. What is the relationship between a concept and reality?

I'd like you to tell me book, chapter and verse where these questions are answered in the Bible. If you didn't get your concept of logic from the Bible then you are "leaning on your own understanding" which the Bible tells you not to do.

You're just screwed no matter how you look at it.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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15-03-2015, 01:24 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 12:41 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 12:20 PM)KnowtheSilence Wrote:  The patterns that logic and math describe exist everywhere in the universe. The rules of logic and math that we use to describe the patterns exist only as thoughts. The patterns can exist without the descriptions, so we do not need a mind as the cause of the universe.

Well, that's way too Platonic for my tastes. Consider

Logic and math are, as far as we know, applicable everywhere in the universe. They only exist in our heads.

Chas got it.

#sigh
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15-03-2015, 01:25 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 11:20 AM)kselfri Wrote:  1) Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
No.
(15-03-2015 11:20 AM)kselfri Wrote:  2) Logic is thought.
Yes, but, thought is not necessarily logic.
(15-03-2015 11:20 AM)kselfri Wrote:  3) Thought only comes from a mind.
The only minds we have identified are the properties of small carbon based life forms.
(15-03-2015 11:20 AM)kselfri Wrote:  Therefore, a mind created the universe.
Non-sequitur.
(15-03-2015 11:20 AM)kselfri Wrote:  Premise #2 could use some explanation, so I'll add the following:
Logic, in its various forms (including mathematics) has been something we discover, not something invented by man. It is not matter or energy. It does not require any dimensions in order to exist, and can exist outside the universe. What else is left for it to be, except thought?
Logic is a process of thinking definitely developed by man. It's development can be historically observed in the writings of philosophers throughout time. It's usefulness can be verified by the accuracy of its results.

You can lead a theist to reason, but, you cannot make him think.
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15-03-2015, 01:30 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 12:53 PM)dimaniac Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 12:48 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Why is it illogical?
Why is there something rather nothing?
Where did universe come from?(or first virtual particles)

This question is improper and commits the fallacy of the stolen concept. It asks for a "cause" while denying the preconditions of a cause, existence. If you did not start with nothing then you would know that existence needs no explanation. Anything you could posit as the cause of existence would have to first exist.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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15-03-2015, 01:38 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
Semantic games = proof of God?

OK anyway granted. You've done it. Statement proved: Mind created universe. On to stage two: who cares?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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15-03-2015, 01:41 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 11:20 AM)kselfri Wrote:  1) Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2) Logic is thought.
3) Thought only comes from a mind.
Therefore, a mind created the universe.

Premise #2 could use some explanation, so I'll add the following:
Logic, in its various forms (including mathematics) has been something we discover, not something invented by man. It is not matter or energy. It does not require any dimensions in order to exist, and can exist outside the universe. What else is left for it to be, except thought?

If you have a proof you then lack faith.
If you lack faith then you cannot know God
If you cannot know God, God doesn't exist

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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15-03-2015, 01:44 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 12:53 PM)dimaniac Wrote:  Why is there something rather nothing?
Where did universe come from?(or first virtual particles)

Those are questions that can be answered by an astrophysicist. I'm not one (sadly).

孤独 - The Out Crowd
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15-03-2015, 01:48 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 01:30 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 12:53 PM)dimaniac Wrote:  Why is there something rather nothing?
Where did universe come from?(or first virtual particles)

This question is improper and commits the fallacy of the stolen concept. It asks for a "cause" while denying the preconditions of a cause, existence. If you did not start with nothing then you would know that existence needs no explanation. Anything you could posit as the cause of existence would have to first exist.
1 Theists are right. Everything can't come from nothing
2 Atheists are right. God can't come from nothing.
Since there are no other options that means that Universe can't exist. But it exists. Therefore logic is delusion.
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15-03-2015, 01:50 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 01:48 PM)dimaniac Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 01:30 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  This question is improper and commits the fallacy of the stolen concept. It asks for a "cause" while denying the preconditions of a cause, existence. If you did not start with nothing then you would know that existence needs no explanation. Anything you could posit as the cause of existence would have to first exist.

Did you have something to say about what I wrote or are you just seconding it?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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15-03-2015, 01:50 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
Define nothing.

孤独 - The Out Crowd
Life is a flash of light between two eternities of darkness.
[Image: Schermata%202014-10-24%20alle%2012.39.01.png]
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