Logic Proof for God
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15-03-2015, 01:52 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
sorry forgot my copypasta
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15-03-2015, 01:53 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 01:48 PM)dimaniac Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 01:30 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  This question is improper and commits the fallacy of the stolen concept. It asks for a "cause" while denying the preconditions of a cause, existence. If you did not start with nothing then you would know that existence needs no explanation. Anything you could posit as the cause of existence would have to first exist.
1 Theists are right. Everything can't come from nothing
2 Atheists are right. God can't come from nothing.
Since there are no other options that means that Universe can't exist. But it exists. Therefore logic is delusion.

You've left out some options. Why am I not surprised?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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15-03-2015, 02:04 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 01:50 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Define nothing.

Seriously? You need a definition of nothing. The concept "nothing" is a relational concept and has no meaning without the concept of "something". It means the absence of something. Why don't you define nothing since you are the one who starts with nothing and then seeks and answer for why there is something.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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15-03-2015, 02:07 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 02:04 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 01:50 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Define nothing.

Seriously? You need a definition of nothing. The concept "nothing" is a relational concept and has no meaning without the concept of "something". It means the absence of something. Why don't you define nothing since you are the one who starts with nothing and then seeks and answer for why there is something.

Sorry Polyglot Atheist,

I got you confused with Diminiac. I thought he had asked for the definition of nothing. I need to read more carefully.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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15-03-2015, 02:07 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 01:53 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 01:48 PM)dimaniac Wrote:  1 Theists are right. Everything can't come from nothing
2 Atheists are right. God can't come from nothing.
Since there are no other options that means that Universe can't exist. But it exists. Therefore logic is delusion.

You've left out some options.
which?
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15-03-2015, 02:10 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 02:07 PM)dimaniac Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 01:53 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  You've left out some options.
which?


That something has always existed of course. Careful, if you claim that this is impossible then it is also impossible for your god. Don't want to contradict yourself.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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15-03-2015, 02:16 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 02:10 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 02:07 PM)dimaniac Wrote:  which?


That something has always existed of course. Careful, if you claim that this is impossible then it is also impossible for your god. Don't want to contradict yourself.
God exists outside of time no contradiction there.
There is no evidence that universe is eternal.
And even if it's eternal it still doesn't answer why there is something rather than nothing
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15-03-2015, 02:28 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 02:16 PM)dimaniac Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 02:10 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  That something has always existed of course. Careful, if you claim that this is impossible then it is also impossible for your god. Don't want to contradict yourself.
God exists outside of time no contradiction there.
There is no evidence that universe is eternal.
And even if it's eternal it still doesn't answer why there is something rather than nothing

Prove it! How could one possibly know that God exists outside of time?!. We can all imagine a being existing outside of time but that is the only alternative if we want to apprehend such a thing. How can we reliably distinguish this God who exists outside of time from something that is purely imaginary? Good luck with that one.

There's no evidence that the universe is not eternal either.

"And even if it's eternal it still doesn't answer why there is something rather than nothing"

This is simply incoherent. If there has always been something then there was never a time when there was nothing. If something has always existed then there is no chance of there being nothing. Wow. This is your brain on Theism!!

And once again, if you are pointing to something that exists in order to explain existence then you haven't made any progress towards explaining existence.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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15-03-2015, 02:49 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 12:41 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 12:20 PM)KnowtheSilence Wrote:  The patterns that logic and math describe exist everywhere in the universe. The rules of logic and math that we use to describe the patterns exist only as thoughts. The patterns can exist without the descriptions, so we do not need a mind as the cause of the universe.

Well, that's way too Platonic for my tastes. Consider

Logic and math are, as far as we know, applicable everywhere in the universe. They only exist in our heads.

I reject Platonism, so I must not have done a good job getting my point across. In fact, your last two sentences sound like a much more succinct way of putting what I was trying to say.

I'm just thinking out loud.
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15-03-2015, 02:52 PM
RE: Logic Proof for God
(15-03-2015 01:20 PM)Ace Wrote:  kalaam which is what the OP amounts to

No, it's not Kalaam. It's a simplified version of a Transcendental Argument.

I'm just thinking out loud.
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