Logic/Reason without a human brain? Christian apologetics.
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05-11-2013, 09:04 AM
RE: Logic/Reason without a human brain? Christian apologetics.
Before humans existed, the universe didn't exist.
Before humans existed, the universe did exist.
Both of these statements are true, it's just a matter of time
The universe didn't exist. The universe exists. Humans exist.
You can clearly see that both of these events happen before humans existed.

This person is asking if the laws of the universe existed before we discovered them ?
Well duh, yes the physics of the universe that the universe operates under existed before us.
And they still exist today

The idea that something that existed before humans were aware of it has any deeper meaning than that same something that still exists today is idiotic.
We haven't discovered all the laws of nature and yet those laws still exist whether we are aware of them or not.

Let's take a moment to think about a hypothetical god who exists for an infinite amount of time before anything existed.
What does one think about when there is literally nothing that one can think about ?
What does one know, when there is nothing to know ?
There is only void and darkness. Can you even produce a thought in these conditions of nothing ?
There is no power, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom

What you have is nothing.

This guy wants to talk about laws of contradiction existing before we do. Sure
And then I would say to him that his god is and always has been ....nothing
The universe coming to existence didn't change the nature of his god, the same way that our existence didn't change the nature of the universe.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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05-11-2013, 09:15 AM
RE: Logic/Reason without a human brain? Christian apologetics.
(04-11-2013 09:29 PM)sporehux Wrote:  Its like a theist friend of mine that thinks he has won an augment by trying to claim you can make 1+1=0 with math.

I got two apples once and said to him make those two apples = 0 (was expecting him to eat them, but he just wafted on with other esoteric nonsense.
tree in forest yaddayadda.

That reminds me of a physics joke:

2 + 2 = 5 (with sufficiently large values of 2) Smartass

"I feel as though the camera is almost a kind of voyeur in Mr. Beans life, and you just watch this bizarre man going about his life in the way that he wants to."

-Rowan Atkinson
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05-11-2013, 09:49 AM
RE: Logic/Reason without a human brain? Christian apologetics.
Rahn127, that was a good post. I've seen Christians state that "god is not bound by time, and therefore could see all points in time and before time". It's just that "mysterious superman" thing that doesn't have to make sense to us. But I reject the notion of an "outside of time god". For anything to happen, it will require time. Even if you "go back in time", from your point of view, you are still [technically] progressing in YOUR linear time. The only way this couldn't be the case is if all knowledge is wiped out when you "go backwards in time". Neither of these can be the characteristics of either an omniscient or omnipotent entity. So, for an "eternal god", there would have had to have been an infinite past [before humans], and I'm not even sure how that could be possible. I mean, . . . if you exist infinitely into the past, . . . . . . . . would you even reach the present? I fear I'm getting out of my "pay grade" now.

Regardless, . . . I appreciate the insight you gave for this discussion.
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05-11-2013, 01:12 PM
RE: Logic/Reason without a human brain? Christian apologetics.
(04-11-2013 09:24 AM)DeavonReye Wrote:  I posted a comment on a youtube video [the video was of a street preacher who was saying absurd comments like "if you hate someone, you commit murder in your heart", and I posted that it was a ridiculous concept. The youtuber then started asking me these types of question:

"Can the universe have existed and not existed in the same way and at the same time before there was a human mind?"

"Before there where humans could the universe have existed and not existed in the same way and at the same time?"

"Does the law of non-contradiction function before there were humans brains to understand it?"

Now, I can't help but think that he has some sort of "apologetic script" to trap people into some sort of "snake oil sales tactic", but . . . .my question is, have you encountered Christians like this?

BTW, . . . his answer to my statement against "hate = murder" was . . . . . "God said so." Rolleyes

The definition of cold-blooded murder (as opposed to self-defense) is that it stems from the heart/from one's intention. Jesus stated that all of us have harbored wicked desires in our hearts, even if we hadn't acted on them--a key difference is that a murderer does the kind of thing others fantasize about doing.

However, Jesus also stated that there are "greater sins" that bear different levels of punishment, which is eminently fair. Your friend misstated the concepts.
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05-11-2013, 01:25 PM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2013 02:09 PM by kim.)
RE: Logic/Reason without a human brain? Christian apologetics.
(05-11-2013 01:12 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(04-11-2013 09:24 AM)DeavonReye Wrote:  The youtuber then started asking me these types of question: ...

... my question is, have you encountered Christians like this?
Your friend misstated the concepts.

DeavonReye: All the time - they continually miss the entire point of the conversation and go on and on about whatever they fucking want. Case in point.....

PleasyJeazy: He wasn't a "friend"... he was just another muddleheaded christee youtuber. Blink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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05-11-2013, 03:41 PM
RE: Logic/Reason without a human brain? Christian apologetics.
(04-11-2013 09:10 PM)DeavonReye Wrote:  That would be helpful. However, I must admit that I'm uncertain as to what "I&I" is.
You'll find out soon enough.
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05-11-2013, 03:46 PM
RE: Logic/Reason without a human brain? Christian apologetics.
(05-11-2013 09:04 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Before humans existed, the universe didn't exist.
Before humans existed, the universe did exist.
Both of these statements are true, it's just a matter of time
The universe didn't exist. The universe exists. Humans exist.
You can clearly see that both of these events happen before humans existed.

This person is asking if the laws of the universe existed before we discovered them ?
Well duh, yes the physics of the universe that the universe operates under existed before us.
And they still exist today

The idea that something that existed before humans were aware of it has any deeper meaning than that same something that still exists today is idiotic.
We haven't discovered all the laws of nature and yet those laws still exist whether we are aware of them or not.

Let's take a moment to think about a hypothetical god who exists for an infinite amount of time before anything existed.
What does one think about when there is literally nothing that one can think about ?
What does one know, when there is nothing to know ?
There is only void and darkness. Can you even produce a thought in these conditions of nothing ?
There is no power, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom

What you have is nothing.

This guy wants to talk about laws of contradiction existing before we do. Sure
And then I would say to him that his god is and always has been ....nothing
The universe coming to existence didn't change the nature of his god, the same way that our existence didn't change the nature of the universe.

Did Leonardo see nothing before paint touched canvas? Was Einstein's mind empty and void before he touched chalk to chalkboard? Were Sheldon and Leonard clueless before they sat for their dissertation defenses or asked Penny and Amy on first dates?

In the beginning, there was energy and pure mind. And this energy gave of itself, and stretched space. And it said, "Since there is conservation of matter and energy, I will give of my energy to provide matter, and form, and order, and humanity, and love."

And there it was.
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05-11-2013, 05:10 PM
RE: Logic/Reason without a human brain? Christian apologetics.
(05-11-2013 03:46 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(05-11-2013 09:04 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Before humans existed, the universe didn't exist.
Before humans existed, the universe did exist.
Both of these statements are true, it's just a matter of time
The universe didn't exist. The universe exists. Humans exist.
You can clearly see that both of these events happen before humans existed.

This person is asking if the laws of the universe existed before we discovered them ?
Well duh, yes the physics of the universe that the universe operates under existed before us.
And they still exist today

The idea that something that existed before humans were aware of it has any deeper meaning than that same something that still exists today is idiotic.
We haven't discovered all the laws of nature and yet those laws still exist whether we are aware of them or not.

Let's take a moment to think about a hypothetical god who exists for an infinite amount of time before anything existed.
What does one think about when there is literally nothing that one can think about ?
What does one know, when there is nothing to know ?
There is only void and darkness. Can you even produce a thought in these conditions of nothing ?
There is no power, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom

What you have is nothing.

This guy wants to talk about laws of contradiction existing before we do. Sure
And then I would say to him that his god is and always has been ....nothing
The universe coming to existence didn't change the nature of his god, the same way that our existence didn't change the nature of the universe.

Did Leonardo see nothing before paint touched canvas? Was Einstein's mind empty and void before he touched chalk to chalkboard? Were Sheldon and Leonard clueless before they sat for their dissertation defenses or asked Penny and Amy on first dates?

In the beginning, there was energy and pure mind. And this energy gave of itself, and stretched space. And it said, "Since there is conservation of matter and energy, I will give of my energy to provide matter, and form, and order, and humanity, and love."

And there it was.

Yes, there was a point before Leonardo was biologically born in which he saw nothing. And yes the same applies to Einstein.
Are you trying to compare your god of infinite everything to a human being who is biologically alive ?

I see your baseless assertion and raise one of my own.
In the beginning there was a rock and a hard place. I was between them both.
As I emerged, the universe sprouted from my own freedom.
I didn't create the universe. I just happened to be wearing corduroy pants at the time. The friction from my massive thighs sparked the universe into being.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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05-11-2013, 05:14 PM
RE: Logic/Reason without a human brain? Christian apologetics.
It reminds me of the "if a tree falls in the rainforest and no one is around to hear it..." question.

Swing with me a while, we can listen to the birds call, we can keep each other warm.
Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
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05-11-2013, 05:52 PM
RE: Logic/Reason without a human brain? Christian apologetics.
(05-11-2013 05:10 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I see your baseless assertion and raise one of my own.
In the beginning there was a rock and a hard place. I was between them both.
As I emerged, the universe sprouted from my own freedom.
I didn't create the universe. I just happened to be wearing corduroy pants at the time. The friction from my one massive thigh sparked the universe into being.

Fixed. Tongue

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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