Logic vs. Theism
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05-03-2017, 11:44 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(05-03-2017 04:44 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(05-03-2017 10:45 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  This is the opposite of the primacy of existence. This is the primacy of consciousness, that reality is dependent on consciousness in some way and conforms to it.
That is a great way of putting it. Certainly, what appealed to me about religious faith was the implicit notion that the nasty bits of reality that I did not approve of could be altered by some combination of influencing god to agree with me, and perhaps wanting something badly enough myself. I was, in short, prone to wishful thinking (in my case, based largely on idealistic notions of how things "ought" to or "could" / "should" be).

Wishful thinking, yes. That is faith in a nutshell.
(05-03-2017 04:44 PM)mordant Wrote:  When you think of it, the "primacy of consciousness" is a key element in most if not virtually all religious and quasi-religious ideation. Think of The Secret for example (the book and the movie) which suggests that one creates one's own reality by thinking in a certain way.

Its essential to all forms of mysticism. They couldn't survive one second on the primacy of existence. They get away with it because so many believe what they want to be true, not what really is true. I remember talking to a teacher at my kid's school. she told me she had been through some really tough times, drug addiction and the like, and she was searching and she looked at different religions and finally settled on Mormonism because they believed that you could be with your family after death as if simply picking a belief that brings one comfort makes it true.

I remember reading that book. That is an excellent example of the primacy of consciousness and a blatant one. There are many others such as "mind over matter". There are also many examples that are far more subtle and insidious that infect peoples thinking. Pick up any book in the new age or religion section......and you might as well include the philosophy section and the self help section and the political section and practically any section and you'll find it either implicitly or explicitly affirmed. Wouldn't it be great if it were true? I read The Secret long before I learned about the primacy of existence and just for a minute, I considered it might be something real. It sounded so good. But in the end I knew it couldn't be true because if it were there'd be a whole lot more billionaires and no need for weight watchers.
(05-03-2017 04:44 PM)mordant Wrote:  If there was a fundamental thing that allowed me to pry religious faith out of my brain, it was deciding to accept bare-metal reality at face value -- the primacy of existence. At root, that is, I'm sure, what most theists are fighting. They've been told that reality is intolerable and unthinkable and unendurable, and they must be cushioned from it by the various value propositions of religious faith.
You made the choice to be honest. And how did your fellow coreligionists react?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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05-03-2017, 11:47 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(05-03-2017 06:55 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  
(05-03-2017 04:44 PM)mordant Wrote:  If there was a fundamental thing that allowed me to pry religious faith out of my brain, it was deciding to accept bare-metal reality at face value -- the primacy of existence. At root, that is, I'm sure, what most theists are fighting. They've been told that reality is intolerable and unthinkable and unendurable, and they must be cushioned from it by the various value propositions of religious faith.

For many theists, reality is in conflict with their God concept since their God is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful and evil and disasters are obviously so wide-spread on Earth. So they blame people for that reality. Thus theists are always trying to figure out some way to bring back God's kingdom to Earth -- "on Earth as it is in Heaven" as they say.

What they really mean is "on Earth as it is in my imagination". I've long held that religion is an attempt to escape the absoluteness of reality.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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05-03-2017, 11:58 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(05-03-2017 09:50 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  Yeah, once cornered many theists just say God isn't subject to logic. If that's the case, then they should stop pretending to have any logical reason for belief, and stop making any logical arguments about its existence and such. In fact, they should pretty much stop discussing it at all, because virtually every statement is going to be meaningless.

I wish people would better educate themselves about the common logical fallacies, because they are such powerful mind traps. I've tried really hard to get certain people to see the fact that they constantly use a fallacy, such as the argument from ignorance, but they either can't or won't see it; even when I use that same argument to "prove" them wrong, and to prove Lord of the Rings is real.

It is so incredibly frustrating isn't it. I once had a Christian bring me into a discussion online for my opinion about their theory that the decoupling of the photons from the quark-gluon soup shortly after the big bang which allowed light to escape was proof of the "let there be light" passage in Genesis. I patiently pointed out several fallacies that they were making and their response? "Well of course it's useless to point out logical fallacies to us here on this forum". I was dumbstruck at the lack of honesty. Why ask me then?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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06-03-2017, 12:40 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
Virtually every statement in the initial post is wrong. I will go through them.

The law of identity isn't a law of logic at all. In fact it is an axiom of Plato-based thought.

The idea that reality contains truth independent of perspective is another (different) axiom from Plato, and relates to the correspondence theory of truth.

Theism does not require that God is a form of consciousness. Only Christianity has this requirement. Classical Judaism limits definitions of God to negatives (what God isn't) and Ash'arite (current) Islam rejects any attempt to ascribe properties to God other than his unlimited power.

The idea that God can change things (like heal the sick) doesn't conflict with the law of identity. I mean medicine can heal the sick. So?

I personally reject Plato, reject the law of identity, reject the correspondence theory of truth, and don't consider God to be a form of consciousness. If Atheists wish to debate, they should try to use more rigorous reasoning.
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06-03-2017, 01:15 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(06-03-2017 12:40 AM)fschmidt Wrote:  Virtually every statement in the initial post is wrong. I will go through them.

The law of identity isn't a law of logic at all. In fact it is an axiom of Plato-based thought.

The idea that reality contains truth independent of perspective is another (different) axiom from Plato, and relates to the correspondence theory of truth.

Theism does not require that God is a form of consciousness. Only Christianity has this requirement. Classical Judaism limits definitions of God to negatives (what God isn't) and Ash'arite (current) Islam rejects any attempt to ascribe properties to God other than his unlimited power.

The idea that God can change things (like heal the sick) doesn't conflict with the law of identity. I mean medicine can heal the sick. So?

I personally reject Plato, reject the law of identity, reject the correspondence theory of truth, and don't consider God to be a form of consciousness. If Atheists wish to debate, they should try to use more rigorous reasoning.

Thank you for your response fschmidt,

It is late and I'm headed to bed. I'll have more to say tomorrow but for now, You say that you reject the law of identity but by identifying the law of identity as opposed to some other law, you make use of the very thing you deny. If you want to debate you should try to use more rigorous reasoning.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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06-03-2017, 01:17 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(05-03-2017 11:47 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(05-03-2017 06:55 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  For many theists, reality is in conflict with their God concept since their God is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful and evil and disasters are obviously so wide-spread on Earth. So they blame people for that reality. Thus theists are always trying to figure out some way to bring back God's kingdom to Earth -- "on Earth as it is in Heaven" as they say.

What they really mean is "on Earth as it is in my imagination". I've long held that religion is an attempt to escape the absoluteness of reality.

Okay, I'm going to disagree with you on this.

I maintain that the purpose of religion is to preserve and promulgate itself. Giving the sense that it transcends escapes reality is just one means to that end.
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06-03-2017, 01:21 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
Yeah, the fundamentals of logic are axioms.

You're free to reject them as you see fit. But I doubt you'll get very far making a coherent argument, or even a statement, about anything.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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06-03-2017, 01:22 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(06-03-2017 01:15 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  You say that you reject the law of identity but by identifying the law of identity as opposed to some other law, you make use of the very thing you deny.

Statements and ideas have identity in my mind. However this doesn't correspond to things in reality or to the ideas in your mind. Each mind is slightly different and communication is imperfect, so we must accept some level of ambiguity in all communications.
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06-03-2017, 01:23 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
We use the law of identity on the abstract systems by which we model reality. We don't use them directly on reality, because we can't.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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06-03-2017, 01:24 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(06-03-2017 01:21 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Yeah, the fundamentals of logic are axioms.

No, the fundamentals of logic are rules of reasoning about statements. The statements that you start with are axioms and are independent of logic.
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