Logic vs. Theism
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11-03-2017, 08:53 AM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2017 09:23 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(11-03-2017 06:50 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(10-03-2017 11:19 PM)socialistview Wrote:  Its both. You have to study then have real life experiece. The bible is the blueprint of how things are your just examining the affects of how you should validate and aquire knowledge your not making up knowledge but taking and examining what has been given to you.

It can't be both. I've already demonstrated that logic and theism clash at the fundamental level. So the Bible must be thrown out as a "blueprint of how things are". To believe what it says is irrational. To believe it you must drop reason all together and adopt an inward looking method of knowledge. When we look outward at reality, we see a very different world than that one portrayed in the Bible, which affirms metaphysical subjectivism.
How is that have you read the bible and have seen that the world is different.
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11-03-2017, 09:44 AM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2017 09:50 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(11-03-2017 08:53 AM)socialistview Wrote:  
(11-03-2017 06:50 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  It can't be both. I've already demonstrated that logic and theism clash at the fundamental level. So the Bible must be thrown out as a "blueprint of how things are". To believe what it says is irrational. To believe it you must drop reason all together and adopt an inward looking method of knowledge. When we look outward at reality, we see a very different world than that one portrayed in the Bible, which affirms metaphysical subjectivism.
How is that have you read the bible and have seen that the world is different.

Have you read the OP. That is how. I see that when I look out at the world certain fundamental facts are self-evident. One is that there is a reality. Two is that to exist is to be something specific, to have an identity, A is A. Third, in the act of grasping these facts I recognize that I exist possessing consciousness, the faculty that perceives that which exists. Together these three axioms entail a forth: that the things which exist and possess identity, do so independent of conscious activity such as perceiving. The Bible rejects these axioms when it holds that the universe and everything in it is the product of a consciousness and depend on it for their identity. Since their identities are dependent on conscious activity, they do not exist independently. This view of the world is known as the primacy of consciousness or the primacy of the subject over its objects, i.e., metaphysical subjectivism. It is for this reason, the rejection of axiomatic truths, including the axiom of identity, that the bible is incompatible with the law of non-contradiction and therefore logic, which is the method of non-contradictory identification of fact.

Notice that when you claim things about your god, that the axioms I mentioned are presupposed. You are making knowledge claims (consciousness) about a being (existence) That you call a god (identity). But in the contents of the claim you assume the primacy of consciousness is also true, performatively rejecting the axioms. Self-contradiction is inescapable.

Now if you have an argument that can demonstrate that theism is in fact compatible with logic and theists are not stealing concepts when they use it, I'd love to hear it. stop asking me questions and focus.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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11-03-2017, 11:05 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
What about axioms and logic is commonsence right or is that the wrong definition. Becuase im talking about seeing reality and gaining underdstanding of what to do and what not to do cant touch the stove becuase its hot. But the bible is just like that if that makes it logical.
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11-03-2017, 11:39 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(11-03-2017 11:05 AM)socialistview Wrote:  What about axioms and logic is commonsence right or is that the wrong definition. Becuase im talking about seeing reality and gaining underdstanding of what to do and what not to do cant touch the stove becuase its hot. But the bible is just like that if that makes it logical.

No. Common sense is not the same as logic. As I've already demonstrated, the Bible is incompatible with logic. If you want to be rational you've got to throw it out.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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11-03-2017, 11:47 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
So define again what is logic.
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11-03-2017, 11:51 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(11-03-2017 11:47 AM)socialistview Wrote:  So define again what is logic.

Read the OP.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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11-03-2017, 11:58 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
Well try its guidlines and see if you see the results from them. Think about that.
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11-03-2017, 01:04 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(11-03-2017 11:58 AM)socialistview Wrote:  Well try its guidlines and see if you see the results from them. Think about that.

I have. And I have thought about it. I've put much effort into understanding it. I have found it to be false and not only that I've demonstrated that it is false.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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11-03-2017, 01:28 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
What did you do.
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11-03-2017, 01:40 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(11-03-2017 01:28 PM)socialistview Wrote:  What did you do.

Again, read the OP. I lay out my case there. What I did was examine the claims of theism rationally. It's not a mystery.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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