Logic vs. Theism
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
14-03-2017, 02:13 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
He can't emotionally cope with things being any other way to how he imagines them to be, so he can't/won't assess his beliefs objectively.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-03-2017, 04:12 AM (This post was last modified: 14-03-2017 04:21 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(14-03-2017 12:13 AM)JesseB Wrote:  
(13-03-2017 11:27 PM)socialistview Wrote:  For one thing we have faith in what we do not see. And God created evil mabe so we can have free will. Becuase before adam ate the fruit good and evil didn't affect them. So they had no understanding of good or evil.

[Image: BrWqrMa.gif]

It's very nice of you to try to be helpful, but I think you must lack experience as a former fundamentalist.

What you're witnessing (and trying to process in the way a normal, rational person would process it) is a memetic virus that has infected his mind and reprogrammed it so that he cannot think in the way that we do-- instead, he compares every new bit of information to the program, to see if it fits, and rejects anything that doesn't fit, in order to preserve the programming. Normal humans are skeptical of incoming claims, prior to acceptance; like the AIDS virus, these religions infect the skepticism parts of the brain and turn it against itself, rendering it unable to do anything but make copies of the program instead of doing its job of filtering incoming garbage.

If pressed on their garbage (when under psychological duress due to the effects of cognitive dissonance or sociological pressures applied by people not in his "we also have the memetic virus" thought-bubble), then he will revert to a state I call a "data dump", in which he begins to simply regurgitate the lines of the program, as he did above... several times.

From his point of view, he is simply stating what he adamantly believes to be The Truth™, and is wondering why the lines of babble he spouts are being called babble, rather than arousing a chorus of agreement on the subject. To a programmed person, everyone should know what line follows what. When we point out that his lines of code are not congruent with reality, he simply refers to another line of code-- that's why we have to admonish him so often for trying to use the Bible to prove the Bible.

It's rather sad, to be honest. Those of us who formerly had this virus developed an immunity when our brains reacted badly to that cognitive dissonance, and we were able to get our "real skepticism of claims" immune system back up and running. Now all the fundies can do is dismiss us as "evil" or "deluded by Satan", or whatever it takes to shield themselves from the cognitive dissonance, so they do not see their program for what it is, and fall into atheism/agnosticism, as we did.

Edit to Add: I feel I should add that there is some good news. SV has shown a few signs that he's having pretty strong cognitive dissonance, which occasionally causes him to break away from bits of the program, and I think it's part of why he's here. Despite the severity of his infection, I think he does know on some level that what he's spouting is simply programming and/or nonsense, and that eventually he will break his fever and reject the virus, so to speak. I have hope, in any case.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 8 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
14-03-2017, 05:03 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
That's true. When he told me Christians were saved from car crashes, and I asked him if statistics would back this up, he instantly admitted that they would not. So part of his brain is fighting this, and enough reality is getting in so that he wouldn't be so deluded as to think the figures would magically change based on his belief. But he instead tried to twist it round so that the ideas still work, regardless of the evidence.

Maybe one day he'll stop trying so hard to squeeze reality into a book. I hope so.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Robvalue's post
14-03-2017, 05:23 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(14-03-2017 05:03 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  That's true. When he told me Christians were saved from car crashes, and I asked him if statistics would back this up, he instantly admitted that they would not. So part of his brain is fighting this, and enough reality is getting in so that he wouldn't be so deluded as to think the figures would magically change based on his belief. But he instead tried to twist it round so that the ideas still work, regardless of the evidence.

Maybe one day he'll stop trying so hard to squeeze reality into a book. I hope so.

I don't know about that, I went back and forth with a past idiot, The Q Continuum, and got him to admit there were bad parts in the bible. A sign that at some level, he understood it wasn't all great, but he just doubled down on his hermeunetic BS (methodological lying) and went right back to defending his bi-bull.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-03-2017, 06:34 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(13-03-2017 11:27 PM)socialistview Wrote:  For one thing we have faith in what we do not see.

That, in a nutshell, is the problem.

Quote: And God created evil mabe so we can have free will.

You do not need evil to be able to make choices.

Quote: Becuase before adam ate the fruit good and evil didn't affect them. So they had no understanding of good or evil.

If they had no understanding then they were not responsible for their actions. Your while theology is a house of cards. It does not make sense.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like unfogged's post
14-03-2017, 06:46 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(13-03-2017 10:41 PM)socialistview Wrote:  In order for god to be a good god in this fairy tale he has to be just and judge people for their wrong doing. Realisticly as the answer you want but its like saying why should there be consequences.

> And who will be the final judge of God who, according to the Bible, is guilty of more crimes and injustices against humanity than Hitler and Stalin combined? Consider
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Gwaithmir's post
14-03-2017, 06:50 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(13-03-2017 07:36 PM)socialistview Wrote:  There has to be justice too fucked not to have justice but god is compassionate and doesnt want anyone to go to hell.

Then why is there hell?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes kemo boy's post
14-03-2017, 07:39 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
Its like when a person doesn't want to be with or around another person.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-03-2017, 07:41 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(14-03-2017 07:39 AM)socialistview Wrote:  Its like when a person doesn't want to be with or around another person.

What is? Hell? When I don't want to be around another person I just make sure I'm not around them... I don't put them in a lake of fire for eternity. Just how big a psychopath is your god?

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like unfogged's post
14-03-2017, 07:48 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(14-03-2017 04:12 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(14-03-2017 12:13 AM)JesseB Wrote:  [Image: BrWqrMa.gif]

It's very nice of you to try to be helpful, but I think you must lack experience as a former fundamentalist.

What you're witnessing (and trying to process in the way a normal, rational person would process it) is a memetic virus that has infected his mind and reprogrammed it so that he cannot think in the way that we do-- instead, he compares every new bit of information to the program, to see if it fits, and rejects anything that doesn't fit, in order to preserve the programming. Normal humans are skeptical of incoming claims, prior to acceptance; like the AIDS virus, these religions infect the skepticism parts of the brain and turn it against itself, rendering it unable to do anything but make copies of the program instead of doing its job of filtering incoming garbage.

If pressed on their garbage (when under psychological duress due to the effects of cognitive dissonance or sociological pressures applied by people not in his "we also have the memetic virus" thought-bubble), then he will revert to a state I call a "data dump", in which he begins to simply regurgitate the lines of the program, as he did above... several times.

From his point of view, he is simply stating what he adamantly believes to be The Truth™, and is wondering why the lines of babble he spouts are being called babble, rather than arousing a chorus of agreement on the subject. To a programmed person, everyone should know what line follows what. When we point out that his lines of code are not congruent with reality, he simply refers to another line of code-- that's why we have to admonish him so often for trying to use the Bible to prove the Bible.

It's rather sad, to be honest. Those of us who formerly had this virus developed an immunity when our brains reacted badly to that cognitive dissonance, and we were able to get our "real skepticism of claims" immune system back up and running. Now all the fundies can do is dismiss us as "evil" or "deluded by Satan", or whatever it takes to shield themselves from the cognitive dissonance, so they do not see their program for what it is, and fall into atheism/agnosticism, as we did.

Edit to Add: I feel I should add that there is some good news. SV has shown a few signs that he's having pretty strong cognitive dissonance, which occasionally causes him to break away from bits of the program, and I think it's part of why he's here. Despite the severity of his infection, I think he does know on some level that what he's spouting is simply programming and/or nonsense, and that eventually he will break his fever and reject the virus, so to speak. I have hope, in any case.

An interesting analysis Rocket.

At some level I do get all of this, but you're right I never dove in so I have trouble wrapping my head around it.

(my "de conversion story" or something close to it lol)
I was raised in a fundamentalist family. when I was 6 I was baptized, before then it was reasonable to me (as a child) to assume that everything I was told in church (3 times a week) was true. All of that changed the day I was baptized.... to put it short nothing happened..... This confused me, so I asked my mom "How do I know I'm saved" her response was "well did you pray and ask? yes? well then you are saved, you just have to have faith" ...... I thought to myself "well that's stupid, so you're saying you don't know"....... instant Atheist, I spent the next 20 years studying religion trying to understand all of this weirdness, but.... at some level I'll never get it I guess. So you're right I guess, I never developed the thought processes that allow people to remain in religion.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like JesseB's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: