Logic vs. Theism
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21-03-2017, 05:49 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(21-03-2017 05:48 PM)socialistview Wrote:  Give me better questions then.

Try answering ones already asked.

(19-03-2017 12:32 AM)socialistview Wrote:  in fact the new testament bans slavery.

Where?

(21-03-2017 05:03 PM)socialistview Wrote:  Jesus says die in shame and humiliation rise in glory. N

Where?

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21-03-2017, 08:39 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(21-03-2017 05:48 PM)socialistview Wrote:  Give me better questions then.

> Cite the Bible passages which ban slavery. Consider
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21-03-2017, 09:12 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
I'm sorry; how does existence not wholly and utterly conforming to the will of man equate to there being no creative force for existence whatsoever?

And when man finds out how to mold all things to his liking or wish; what would your axiom pose then?

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21-03-2017, 09:16 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(21-03-2017 09:12 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I'm sorry; how does existence not wholly and utterly conforming to the will of man equate to there being no creative force for existence whatsoever?

And when man finds out how to mold all things to his liking or wish; what would your axiom pose then?

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

The universe doesn't conform to the will of humans, or gods, or anything else you can conceive of. The universe, reality, just is. Regardless of what we wish, or want, or think, that isn't going to change.

The only thing that's ever come close to conforming the world to our wants, is our application of science. Our intentional manipulation made possible through our understanding of how the universe works.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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21-03-2017, 09:17 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(21-03-2017 08:39 PM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 05:48 PM)socialistview Wrote:  Give me better questions then.

> Cite the Bible passages which ban slavery. Consider

We keep asking this, he keeps avoiding it... pity.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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21-03-2017, 09:18 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(21-03-2017 03:53 AM)AB517 Wrote:  logic:
correlation, mechanism, prediction.

emotional:
How we feel about it
personal needs, emotional needs, blind faith.

if we describe the events around us using predetermined agendas we will have a ton of inconsistencies and emotional self justifications. Our conclusions will be based on a warped world view of whatever goal we are seeking. Real or imagined isn't a real concern for some people. The end justifies the means for people seeking to fill that emotional uncertainty.

Welcome newcomer!

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22-03-2017, 01:13 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(21-03-2017 04:13 PM)socialistview Wrote:  It was going to happen anyways by man's free will. Let me ask you this do you ask your self these questions before you ask me?

You claimed the NT bans slavery.

Are you going to admit you are wrong, or are you going to back this up?

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22-03-2017, 02:07 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(21-03-2017 12:46 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 02:10 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Yup. "I was wrong" is not a phrase that comes easy to some.

I used to know someone who was an habitual liar. He'd make outrageous claims, that even he knew weren't true, but once he'd said them he'd never back down. He'd pile lie onto lie to avoid ever having to admit a mistake. I don't know how I ever put up with him to be honest.

WAIT, YOU KNEW DONALD TRUMP??!!

Big Grin Yeah, he's definitely blossomed since then.

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22-03-2017, 04:49 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
Oh god, the meds have worn off again...

(21-03-2017 09:12 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I'm sorry; how does existence not wholly and utterly conforming to the will of man equate to there being no creative force for existence whatsoever?

It doesn't but, then again, who said it did?

Quote:And when man finds out how to mold all things to his liking or wish; what would your axiom pose then?

What axiom?

Quote:peace

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You are a perfect example of fàng pì

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22-03-2017, 08:50 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(21-03-2017 09:12 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I'm sorry; how does existence not wholly and utterly conforming to the will of man equate to there being no creative force for existence whatsoever?

And when man finds out how to mold all things to his liking or wish; what would your axiom pose then?

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

Well Pops, I did not make this argument. My argument is designed to show that theism is incompatible with logic because it affirms the primacy of consciousness. I can certainly make the argument that you are trying to address and I have in these very forums, and as yet it remains un-refuted.

But notice what you've asked here and what it implies. You asked in essence why does the primacy of existence preclude there being "a creative force for existence". Do you not see the stolen concepts involved in that sentence? Do you know what a stolen concept is and why it's such a problem?

The stolen concept fallacy occurs when one uses a concept while denying or calling into question the validity of a concept in its genetic hierarchy, i.e., a concept that is logically antecedent to it. The concept "existence" is axiomatic. That means it identifies a fact at the most fundamental level of knowledge. What that means is that existence cannot be analysed, explained or accounted for because "existence" is the widest of all concepts, subsuming everything that exists. Therefor in order to account for existence, one would have to look to non-existence for a cause of existence. So one would be making use of the concept "cause", which presupposes some thing which is the cause, in the absence of existence. But to be a thing, thing or a cause it would first have to exist. Thus we have a breach in logic or rather the logical structure of knowledge. Hence the incompatibility of such a notion with logic.

Also, where did you get the concept "create" from. How was it formed? In every case of creation we can observe, it is a rearrangement of existing elements to form something new. We have no cases of something being created from noting and by an act of consciousness. "Wishing doesn't make it so". That's the primacy of existence. What theism means by creation is something else entirely and is actually an invalid use of the concept "create". We can all imagine that a being exists that can create reality out of nothing by wishing or commanding, but in the end, because reality has primacy over the imagination, there is a fundamental distinction between the real and the imaginary. Since the purpose of logic is to distinguish the real from the not real, the primacy of existence is logically antecedent to logic. This is inescapable.

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